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sweatnbullets
02-09-2006, 10:32 PM
In the world of the gun there are two types of responses to a life threatening event. The first and most popular is the conditioned response. A few examples of conditioned responses would be stand and deliver, the controlled pair, and to always make use of your sights. These are responses that we train into ourselves with the hope that when the SHTF we will default to our training and this programming will save the day.

While I was learning the Modern Techniques, (MT) I constantly questioned the logic behind many of the conditioned responses. To me, there was very little common sense attached to these conditioned responses. Even as a newbie I knew that I would never fight in this manner. It went away from the logic of all of my past experiences. As I trained and trained in the MT, I always held on to the realization the MT's were just going to be a foundation, a foundation that I built my fighting style on top of.

As I progressed, I began to incorporate what I thought a common sense fighting style would entail. I began to seek out people that thought as I did. My observations were confirmed again and again by highly respected "been there done that" guys, most notably a Federal Agent that went under the handle 7677.He would write posts of his real world experience that coincided with my thoughts and observations As my suspicions were verified, my training progressed into an area that very few people have explored. I began to embrace the concept of natural human response.

As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close. They would default to their natural human response. They solved problems at a sub-conscious level. I witnessed many people doing things that they had never been trained to do. After the encounter I would talk to them about their response. The majority actually did not know what they had done to solve the problem. As I told them what they did, they would often look at me in disbelief that they reacted in that manner. This furthered my interest in the subject, which lead me to my next level of enlightenment.

I call this level Fluid Situational Response. The concept is that you can incorporate your natural human response and your conditioned response and use them fluidly in the appropriate situation all along, what 7677 calls the fighting continuum. I know some of you will say that this does not stay within the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle, or that it does not conform to Hicks law (the more options you have, the longer it will take to access an option). IMHO this is just not so. Hicks law applies to conditioned responses, that is why you should have a mastery of a few essential techniques. Hicks law does not apply to natural human response. There is no lag time to access these responses. Your body will choose the solution to the problem in a microsecond at a subconscious level. Accepting this to be fact opens up a world that very few have explored.

My training is now geared to my Fluid Situational Response. The response is dictated by time, distance, and where you find yourself in the reactionary curve. The position on the reactionary curve is the most important factor to your response. This is where natural human response of "fight or flight" takes over. IMHO you should embrace the "fight or flight" response and train within that response. One thing to keep in mind, when it comes to firearms "fight or flight" is also "fight and flight." The direction you move, the speed of your movement, the necessary visual input to maneuver and to comprehend the problem, the necessary visual input needed to make the hits, and the necessary visual input to recognize the situational changes are all dependent on your position on the reactionary curve inside of the 7677 fight continuum.

There is no doubt that at certain distances, going hands on before you access your handgun is the very best response. But for now, let's take a look at responses that are outside of hand to hand ranges.

If you have succeeded in being ahead in the reactionary curve due to awareness, deception, distraction, or metsubishi (throw something in the face of your adversary) you are in a dominant position. Conditioned responses are excellent for this situation. Stand and deliver, sighted fire, aggressively advancing to your 12:00 are all appropriate responses.

If you find yourself even in the reactionary curve, your response will have to be different. Conditioned responses may not get the job done as well as natural human response. The fight and flight response will kick in and you will want to get out of the kill zone. Move as you draw, put hits on the adversary as soon as you can using threat focused skills, work towards getting inside of the adversaries OODA loop by your movement, making hits, and acquiring his flank. Once you have turned the reactionary curve in your favor, embrace your fluid situational response and shift from a reactionary position to the dominant position and eliminate the threat.

If you find yourself well behind the reactionary curve, your response will have to change even more. A conditioned response could be suicide, your best hope is a natural human response. Brownies startle response can be use to your advantage and you must train to be comfortable within your startle response. Flight overrides fight, because you must survive the initial contact so that you can get into the fight. Explode out of the kill zone, move to cover if near or access the weapon on the sprint, put hits on the adversary using threat focus skills, look to turn the tide, if the situation changes, flow into the next appropriate response.

Once you embrace your Fluid Situational Response you will go places that you never thought were possible, Where your mind is the weapon and the gun is just an extension of your mind, and everything flows with no conscious thought.

The inevitable question arises, "what is more important, to get the hits or to not get hit?" The Fluid Situational Response answers that question. When you are ahead of the reactionary curve, it is more important to get the hits. You are in the dominate position....ELIMINATE THE THREAT! If you are even on the reactionary curve the importance are equal. Use a balance of speed (of movement) and accuracy to solve the problem. If you are behind in the reactionary curve it is more important to not get hit. Get out of the kill zone by "thinking move first." Sprint to cover if it is near or access your handgun on the sprint and put hits on your adversary. Always look to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and progress through your Fluid Situational Response until you are either dominating the confrontation or have put yourself in the position to terminate the confrontation.

Dave James
02-10-2006, 12:59 PM
You have done well 'grashopper":D , Your thinking and training have gone further than I was every trained to do , or frankly think about

sweatnbullets
02-10-2006, 09:10 PM
You have done well 'grashopper":D , Your thinking and training have gone further than I was every trained to do , or frankly think about

With a compliment like that, from a man like you......you can call me anything you want.

steve2267
02-10-2006, 10:26 PM
You have done well 'grashopper":D , Your thinking and training have gone further than I was every trained to do , or frankly think about

Ain't it cool when the student becomes the teacher? Something tells me Sweatnbullets ain't no grasshopper no more!

sweatnbullets
02-10-2006, 10:58 PM
Steve, you must be suffering from avatar envy.:D

steve2267
02-10-2006, 11:14 PM
Steve, you must be suffering from avatar envy.:D

Damn, Roger... it's just that yours is...well.... soooo BIG!

Dave James
02-11-2006, 10:35 AM
ONe of my recent pleasures , has been younger officers who have called to hash things over and ask questions,, with the Gen-X's and those just before and after, and their puter knowledge, it seems simpler for them to think out side the box, or even in 3 dimension,, there by giving them insight , and the ability to change or better a system.

All of you are on that path, I'm just glad there's still a few who ask questions,, I learned a long time ago,, Me/myself and I know nothing, have learned a little , and for the most part keep looking to improve.

sweatnbullets
02-21-2006, 09:31 PM
ONe of my recent pleasures , has been younger officers who have called to hash things over and ask questions,, with the Gen-X's and those just before and after, and their puter knowledge, it seems simpler for them to think out side the box, or even in 3 dimension,, there by giving them insight , and the ability to change or better a system.

All of you are on that path, I'm just glad there's still a few who ask questions,, I learned a long time ago,, Me/myself and I know nothing, have learned a little , and for the most part keep looking to improve.

Thanks Dave, that seems to be my niche, "The guy that looks at things from a different angle." It is good to see that I can bring something to the table that makes the "old war horses":D stop and say, "Hmmmm?"

sweatnbullets
04-07-2006, 11:04 PM
I posted this on one of the other foums and got some pretty good responses. I thought I would bring it back to the top for the newer guys.

The Advanced Quick Kill course works off of the Fluid Situational Response principles.

JMusic
04-08-2006, 12:16 AM
Well with all those compliments I guess its up to me to kick your feet out from under ya!:eek: Just kidding:D

Don't make the mistake though that you can stand and deliver and not get hurt. I have seen the contrary. I know the shooter and I saw the groups. Still he( my friend) was hit with multiple rounds. He delivered 5 shots to the heart with a .357. I saw a man shot 10 times with a mixture of 12 Guage slugs and OO ,blown down a flight of stairs,( steel and concrete 24 steps!) AND GUESS WHAT ALMOST KILLED HIM? Infection from the intestine wounds!!! Look at shooting deer, I have killed several with a 22 rifle and a few with a 22 pistol. Non escaped. Yet I have shot them with a Muzzle loader and center fire rifle only to see them run for a few hundred yards.

IMHO you need to stay out of the line of fire while delivering fire on target, thats the key to survival.
Jim

sweatnbullets
04-08-2006, 09:35 AM
Thanks for the response Jmusic. You can kick my feet out from under me whenever you like.:) I have found that my greatest learning experiences occur when I am being challenged. Sometimes I believe in things that some people do not follow. By making me explain myself, it gets down to the meat of the matter.......the "why."

"Why" is a really great question and is something that should always be asked, especially when someone is really thinking outside the box. Recently there has been a lot of questions asked about "why." That tight neat little box has grown significantly over the last couple of years.

On the "stand and deliver," I admit that it would not be my first choice. BUT, I can not discount the effectivenes to this technique by many of the very best gunfighter and a number of our more experienced members. Bill Jordon and Jelly Bryce were stand and deliver guys. I know that Gloves and Dave James have done very well for themselves using the technique.

In my FSR, I have tried to be open minded and cover the full spectrum of possibilities. "Stand and Deliver" is in that spectrum. I have tried to express when the technique can be used and where it probably should not be used. It is just a guideline, one that I have not seen expounded on in much detail or depth.

JMusic
04-08-2006, 01:45 PM
Only in jest Sweatnbullets. If I modeled my gun handling around anyone it would have been Jordan. I was a stand and deliver, move, deliver etc... The amount of fire a person can put down with todays weapons is surely awsome. I truley feel either method is good as long as you are all committed in your actions. I always found myself "creeping" away from the BG's weapon even if no shots were fired. We became serious about "shooting on the run" during house or building sweeps. I did this quit a bit so the habit became a norm. :) Take care.
Jim

sweatnbullets
04-09-2006, 12:40 PM
Jmusic, I rely on more experienced guys to keep me thoroughly grounded. I appreciate your input and keeping me on my toes, even if it is only in jest.:)

Someone on another forum asked about "luck" and whether it was just as possibly to move into a lucky shot from an adversary. Here is my response and I would like to hear what you all think about it.

All they have to do is be lucky!

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The adversary getting lucky is always a possibility, especiallly with Mr Murphy at the helm. I see movement that has a purpose as reducing that possibility for them to get lucky. The purpose can be to flank the adversary, to get to cover, or to "hide behind your bullets." Each of these, makes the shot of the adversary more and more difficult, reducing the chances more and more that they get lucky.

Let me add that "hiding behind your bullets" is an agressive straight forward attack, that puts lead on an adversary as quickly as possible. This is the very easiest form of movement to get hits on a full run and is excellent when you are ahead in the reactionary curve.The second easiest form or movement to make hits on a run is moving forward on the obliques, then rearward on the obliques. Finally the most difficult is dynamic lateral movement. This last one is virtually the "Holy Grail" of the shooting community.

As the dynamics of the movement increases, so does the difficulty of the shot, and in turn so does the difficulty of the adversary to make the hits. The way I see it when the difficulty increases, the chance to get lucky decreases.

Stand and deliver definitely has it's place, especially for really exceptional guys. The faster and more accurate you are the more possible your option to stand and deliver. You must know your limitations and work within those limitations. If I had Lurpers skill level (top notch IPSC competitor) the arena that I used my stand and deliver skills would be expanded. But my draw times are not as fast, my splits are not as quick, and I am not as accurate as a tier one competitor.

Every man needs to know his limitations, develop a system that works within those limitations, and reduce the possibility for the other guy to get lucky by increasing the difficulty of his response.

sweatnbullets
05-25-2006, 12:00 AM
Fluid situational responses is something that many of us have done thousands if not tens of thousands of times. I know that I have been doing them since I was 6 or 7 years old while running the football. Why is it, that concepts such as these, are foreign inside of the world of the gun?

Running the football is something that came completely natural to me. No one every taught me, I was doing it well before I had ever even seen a football game. The elements that were required to be very good at running the ball was something that I as born with. Speed, quickness, balance, timing, vision, coordination, aggresiveness, instincts, and the ability to make people miss, was a natural gift. As I progressed, I added conditioned responses to my natural skills. Skills such as how to read my blockers, how to better protect the ball, spins, straight arms, etc. were added. BUT, I never trained away from my natural abilities.

Why would someone ever want to do that? Could you imagine someone like Michael Jordon ignoring or training away from his natural abilities .......WTF? :confused:

Running the football is the ultimate OODA loop experience. I had the OODA loop mastered as a child. Vision always play the key role. I would see the defender attempting to cut off my route. The goal was to get inside of his OODA loop and make him react to me. Feints, jukes, cutbacks, burst of speeds, holding speed in reserve, and willingness to lower my head and take it to them, were all tools to work the OODA loop in my favor. Each one had it's place, each one was accessed in a microsecond, each one flowed from one to another, seamlessly at a sub-conscious level.

SOUND FAMILAR?

What about visual input? The footbal field is a very chaotic place. There is not just one person after you. You need to be able to see the whole field. Even when a guy twice as big as you is bearing down on you, you need to see everyone else that is a potential threat. You simply can not focus on one element of the big picture. You need to have a field of vision that gives you the entire image of the situation.

Thing that make you go hmmmmmmm.....:cool:

Low Drag
05-27-2006, 09:02 AM
SOUND FAMILAR?



Transferable skills......

There are many things we do in every day life that can be used in SD, if you take a breath and step back. Then think. Just the same, we can apply martial studies to every day life.