Preassault Behavioral Patterns

[sweatnbullets]

We seem to have a very good group of real world guys, I was hoping to get your input on what signs you saw firsthand before someone launched an attack or took off running.

While I never been a LEO, I've been around the block a couple of times. Some signs that I have witnessed first hand were as follows.

Pacing back and forth
Face turning white
Target glancing
Witness glancing
Clinched fists
Clinched jaw
Thousand yard stare
Puffing up of the chest
Grooming

What have you seen that made you know that an attack was coming?

What did you do to counter these patterns?

[steve2267]

DJ,

If you're willing to share... I'm very keen to know how/what/when/where/why Mr. Bryce told/taught you to watch a potential assailant's hands... For example, were you looking of anything (position? location? grip etc) in particular?

[Guantes]

Sbs,
Increased respiration, almost like hyperventilating
Shift from a head on to a bladed stance
Elevation of volume or pitch of speech
Dropping of the head
Slight sinking of the body or bending of the knees

I'm not sure you can know an attack is coming. I think you can know an attack is possible. I have seen different people exhibit the same ques and one will go off and another will back/calm down.

As far as counter actions, everything from a, "You don't want to do that" stare to a pre-emptive strike.

[The Searcher]

I have seen what Guantes describes.

I've also seen people get real quiet. "The time for talking is over. Now, it's fight time."

In situations with a lengthy buildup, I've noticed one particular thing several times. The less mouthy and aggressive of the two will shake his head as if to say, "I really don't want to be doing this" or "I can't believe this guy" before launching an assault. I have never seen the mouthier one do this. This may be a version of Guantes' "You don't want to do this" stare.

Has anyone noticed a difference between the behaviors based on such things a intoxication or perhaps a premeditated criminal assault such as a robbery rather than a brawl? The examples I've given are all from fights rather than robberies or rapes.

[Dave James]

Every thing posted, and then some,,

Hands,opening and closing fists, wild gestures stop and they stay close to the body, one or both never move above the waist{ think loud arugment},

In the South and West males removing any hats, and the ole 1000 yard stare,,

Now most of this goes out the window when dealing with EDP's, most I have dealt with went from docile quite, to raving lunatics, in the blink of an eye

[Roundeyesamurai]

Shifting the feet (subtle) to either make distance slightly, or close distance slightly;

Pulling up or hitching up of trousers (usually in order to camouflage other body movements, such as replacement of the feet or turning of the body);

If they have a lit cigarette, holding it between the thumb and middle finger (often with the arms hanging down) in preparation to flick it at someone's face;

The Searcher brought up a good point, with regards to assault cues prior to violent crimes (as opposed to fights):

Forcible Rape- the pre-assault cues are likely to be as detailed above, if they are present at all;

Robbery/Burglary- same as presented above, with the addition of watching for loitering of persons at or near the location where the crime will take place;

Another one to remember, is that these preassault cues can often be seen in abusive persons, with regards to the person they are abusing (spouse, children, etc.), immediately before making the decision to engage in actual abuse (which they may postpone until they are no longer in a public venue).

[PaulDmitrios]

+1 to what Dave James said with EDPs. You just can't tell. I've been punched and tackled by guys who the second before had been calm. If you think a person maybe mentally unbalanced AND potentially violent stay the heck out of arms reach. Most of my experience is with crazies but a good indicator is also if a person is boxed in in some way, the potential for violence is much greater. I know LEOs routinely encounter people in this predicament but my rule of thumb is be closest to the door, but not between the nut and it.

[Roundeyesamurai]

+1 to what Dave James said with EDPs. You just can't tell. I've been punched and tackled by guys who the second before had been calm. If you think a person maybe mentally unbalanced AND potentially violent stay the heck out of arms reach. Most of my experience is with crazies but a good indicator is also if a person is boxed in in some way, the potential for violence is much greater. I know LEOs routinely encounter people in this predicament but my rule of thumb is be closest to the door, but not between the nut and it.

+1

Also:

(...) stay the heck out of arms reach.

I'm known to say that in the dojo from time to time :D

[JMusic]

What I have seen from the "normal" population is it does take some type of escalation, yelling, violent gestures, positioning, ect. The human mind seems to have to build up to violence.

Now for professionals and the abnormal. The pro's generaly do not give much of an indication but tell you to stay away and maybe turning slightly to one side. They do not show much emotion, some smile. They don't give ground. The drug induced and emotionaly unfit can run the gammit. Generaly you can see the crazyness in their eyes. They may work into an agitation some may not. This is the worst group to get involved with their strength is amazing!!! And they BITE:)
Jim

[Guantes]

+1 to what's been said re druggies and dings. They are like nitro, you never know when they will blow! Both can take a lot of punishment with sometimes little effect.

[Ankeny]

Increased respiration, almost like hyperventilating
Shift from a head on to a bladed stance
Dropping of the head
Slight sinking of the body or bending of the knees


Holy cow, you just described an IPSC shooter right before the buzzer. I am serious.

[Guantes]

Hey Ankeny,

Interesting. Actually, a kinda general preparation for an athletic activity of whatever kind.

[JMusic]

I did not answer sweatnbullets question entirely. What do you do if an attack is apparent or something like that. What I would do then is get the subject preocupied such as talking, beating his chest what have you then hit him in a nerve center very hard with something very hard.

Now in LE you were always at a disadvantage. Not only did you have to survive the assault you had to affect an arrest. This meant sometype of containment The more your in contact with a person the more likelyhood of an injury. Today being a civi I simply try to escape. Alot easier. An example.

Two weeks ago I went to Daytona with some friends for race week. We usually played pool at one of the local bars to closing time. "I know Mom" stay away from bars! Anyway I went to the bar to buy some drinks. I noticed a very large man to my left as I approached. I turned my back to him to get the bartenders attention and the next thing I knew he had an arm around my neck! I immediatly reached up and grabed his small and ring finger and with a twisting motion tried to put those two fingers at a 90 degree angle to the rest. I was able to get his arm down to about chest level but he still did not let go. I took my other hand and with my center knuckle of my other hand proceeded to drill this into the center of the back of his hand while continuing the twisting motion. By then he was ready to let go, I was able to slip under his hold and retreat back a few steps. While I was being pulled away I was explaining how antisocial his behavior was:) . The man instead of attacking seemed happy to have his hand back. No harm no foul. Everything returned to normal. If I was still in LE I would probably still be trying to handcuff this dick.

A couple points: One I should have noticed this when I walked up to the bar. He had been doing this all night to people making them buy him drinks and he had made eye contact with me because I remember nodding to him. Two once I was free I disengaged. There is no need to continue to fight if you can get away. Leave your ego's home. Stay safe.
Jim

[Brownie]

The pro's generaly do not give much of an indication but tell you to stay away and maybe turning slightly to one side.
They do not show much emotion, some smile. They don't give ground.

I don't know about the pro comment but the above two quotes describe almost exactly how I "prep to go" when I feel it's a possibility or eventuality. I'm also more apt to get into this mode if the other person has moved into my inner circle [ inside my arms reach ].

They get the "back up", "back off" [ sometimes a few times are necessary ], most often with the right arm [ keeping the left free to "roam" as their right may interject into that gesture of my arm and it can make it "GO TIME" right then ]. When this happens, I am automatically bladed a little at the shoulders and may take a small step to blade the body slightly as well, distributing the weight in preparation of moving forward. :D [ like another mentioned, there is no "backing up/off" for me ]. I think it's a Marine thing or something:(

If their hands are up above the waist and/or moving about in gestures, I'll peripherally watch them. If their hands are hanging down at their sides I watch the shoulders peripherally [ they are good indicators of beginning movements ].

My arms come to centerline [ protecting the core ], my hands usually around my belt level. It's not threatening but they can intercept pretty quickly from there.

One should watch the weight distribution of the opponent in close. Shifting their weight to the rear leg [ even slightly rearward ] is a good indicator of their launching an attack. Again the shoulders will give this away most often as well [ and may appear that they are leaning forward slightly ].

I've taken people off their attack plans within microseconds of their launching when I've seen this weight shifting [ knowing the attack launch was coming or they at least were setting up for it ] by just stiff arming them in the chest at that moment with the "back up/back off" routine. Knowing this will likely invite the attack, I'm ready and I initiated instead of waiting for theirs [ this would be Guantes' pre-emptive striking ].

I like pre-emptive when it's available to me and the indicators are it's a potential go, but only if they are within my inner circle. ;) Knowing my own preassault behavioral patterns, I sorta look for those in others as well. If they work good for me, I'm prone to think that others have figured them out as well.

Though it's pre-assault indicators we are talking about, I think it is good to also observe them in the context of "telegraphing" and knowing how the body moves to watch the telegraphing of the shoulders, both moving forward [ leaning in slightly ] and one or the other blading slightly [ and this can be hidden by them by the appearance of their putting the hands in their front pockets or on their waist ], coupled with weight distribution at the same time.

[RAM]

Pacing back and forth
Face turning white
Target glancing
Witness glancing
Clinched fists
Clinched jaw
Thousand yard stare
Puffing up of the chest
Grooming


Kinda sounds like a used car salesman! Preassault? you bet! :eek:

[Guantes]

I would have to disagree with JMusic on cops being at a disadvantage. You have more tools as a cop. When I had people whom I thought were about to go I already had my hand on my sap. The moment I saw they were going they got thumped. Sort of a sap quickdraw.

[PaulDmitrios]

Has anyone experienced the brief lookaway before a swing or punch? I've seen it twice, where a guy glanced away from me just prior to swinging. Nowadays I watch the guy...not what he's watching...lesson learned for moi!

[Guantes]

PD,
I had a couple try that. I think they get it watching "Duke" movies, it was a tactic of his.

[JMusic]

Guantes, not to be aurgumentative the point I was making was that you could disengage without further contact. As far as saps I quit carrying them a long time ago. I can remember one obnoxios individual that was hit on the head several times while I had him in a choke hold. I had three thoughts. It sounds like they are hitting him with a ball peen hammer, I HOPE THEY DON'T HIT ME, and this is having no affect at all. We all have different experiences. When I hit someone with a police weapon I hit to break bones and limit the amount of strikes. Lets agree to disagree unless you think your point needs more emphasis. I'm talking plain clothes duty here. If we were talking about a Pr 24 I will admit that is an awsome weapon. I in the past used a Texan, a Convoy, and a baton with spray in one end. A finally settled on two sets of cuffs, 3 dcell Mag light, A BHP and a Colt Detective Special. No doubt police are walking arsenals but they are driven by a set of rules. I never considered fleeing an option while wearing a badge. Thanks
JIm

[Guantes]

JM,
If you meant that citizens could disengage and cops couldn't, I agree.
Re the weapons, I agree re different experiences. I hit to stop, just like shooting. Targets would vary.
I was thinking of in uniform. I used a five cell Kel-light and a Gonsales sap. The Gonsee was every bit as effective as a pr-24

[JMusic]

Were on the same page man.:) The point was to disengage. You have to admit sticking cuffs on some of these dicks can be the highlight of the night! Take care.
Jim

[Brownie]

My last post dealt with Pre-assault Behavioural Patterns [ PBP's ]of the up close and personal kind.

Let me address the same subject from my own perspective of "distance" and working the streets as an investigator.

What were the ques that set off bells that someone was about to potentially take action against another or myself from some distance other than "in your face" ?

Most people walk around oblivious to their surroundings and what is going on in their immeidiate vicinity unless something is occuring which would draw their attention [ like a baby crying, or a mother slapping a kid, or some older person fell down, and a host of others ].

If someone is focusing on another for no aparent reason to do so, I look to motives immediately. Asking myself, why is this person not in the white, minding their own business and intent on something that doesn't immediately seem warranted.

I find myself questioning "why" are they doing what they are doing. "Why the specific attention to this? "What" could be the motive for doing so [ which may and can play into the location this is happening in, in the general context of the overall package in front of me ].

If someone or a group has caught my attention in this manner, I find myself staying out on the peripheral, [ when it may have been I was walking into or through something going on ] by changing direction casually and not giving notice I see something [ like I'm in the white zone myself ]. Maybe eye contact has been made and I just then "appear" to remember I forgot something like digging into my pocket, and turn and retreat back the way I had come [ acting upset at myself through some facial expression ].

I ask myself, could it be a cop focused on something or someone who might be su****ious? Is this person looking at what I consider a potential "mark", or what else might it be in a general sense.

If someone seems focused or looks to be attempting not to be focused but obviously is on something, thats ODD behaviour for most people minding their own business and going about their daily activities.

Is it some guy trying to be coy and checking out some chick thats hot? Thats not an indicator of trouble in and of itself normally, hell I do that myself as I'm sure most males have done in their daily lives.

What that last paragraph tries to address is that not every "focused" person may be up to no good as well. How does one recognize the indicators of which doesn't look right and which is normal behaviour? Mostly through experiences in their own lives and being aware of their own surroundings. Thats how we can pick up on others ques ourselves.

So, I look at unusual behaviour [ not being in the white zone like most everyone else is ], for that particular time and place. If it catches my attention through my own observations, should it be dismissed and just continue on? I don't do that myself with my background, others may.

Ever see a picture of a busy crosswalk? People pass each other and basically do not give notice to other in their daily routines. Now if you watched a video of two hours of a busy crosswalk and people came and went into the picture regularly, then you spotted someone "notice/focus" unneccessarily on another and redirect that attention in a physical sense [ like turning and following them ], that would set flags off for me, and probably a lot of others here.

1. Apparent unwarranted attention to another
2. odd behaviour, something that sticks out as "not normal"
3. Apparent motives for that behaviour or attention to another

There are others, but this is a start toward what is being discussed here. So, nothing like the specifics others have mentioned but everything in a "general" sense that includes the specifics mentioned.

Is it a general threat focus or something specific. It can be either or both for me that raises the flags on others behaviours, and I find I'm always asking that question of "motives" for the behaviour that drew that attention to begin with.

Oh Yes, I forgot to mention, I always profile people, and that profiling is not always politically correct. :D It has never hurt and most often helped in this subject.

[Dave James]

Ahhh!!!!!! Saps!!!!!!!!!!

[Guantes]

Hey DJ,
You would have loved the Gonsales sap. It was made by an ELA traffic dep. It was shaped like a coke bottle and about two inches thick, weighed about two lbs with a limp, stacked leather handle.
One of the best tools ever invented for police work.:D
Then there is always sap gloves, from whence my moniker comes.

[JMusic]

Gauntes I too like the sap gloves but didn't want to show my ignorance on the sap you described by asking what it looked like. I don't think I ever saw one.

Brownie one more thing that I pick up on is what I refer to as pack behavior such as seen in wolves. Not so much anything aggressive just a mingling of several of the members "focused" on a specific area.
Jim

[Guantes]

JM,
I don't think they were seen much out of L.A., although they had a reputation there, as Bob (Gonsales) made them individually on specific order.

I agree on the pack behavior, especially in places like malls and their parking lots.

[Brownie]

JMusic:

That was what I was trying to convey when I stated:

I find myself questioning "why" are they doing what they are doing. "Why the specific attention to this? "What" could be the motive for doing so [ which may and can play into the location this is happening in, in the general context of the overall package in front of me ].

If someone or a group has caught my attention in this manner,

When it is several doing it, the alarm bells really go off for me. The very nature of several hanging around and attentive to something [ being profiled here by myself ], is cause to stay on the peripheral even more. To "float" and watch the developing scenario as it were.

As I'm sure many are aware, the pack mentality of a group has a propensity to create more bravado amongst them individually.

[Guantes]

Brownie,
Did you ever let them notice your observation, just to throw a wild card into the mix?

[Brownie]

Yes,

On more than a few ocassions, when the potential prey were women or old or infirmed, I interjected myself into the scenario before anything went down and made sure they understood I was aware of their intentions and ready to react to them by my demeanor and eye contact. Taking the prey out of the possible danger zone/area, helping them load groceries on one ocassion and seeing them off in the car.

Out in the remotes of the desert here in the last year while roaming on the trails, I've run into a situation or two where groups of 2-5 were watching "snow bird" hikers [ usually an older couple ], and approached the couple telling them they may want to move off away from that direction.

Some pretty unusual things happen in the wilderness of the Superstitions and it is not wise to go unarmed out there, yet the tourists and snow bunnies seem to think it is Disneyland by their actions in the middle of no mans land.

Whether it is my watching on the peripheral outskirts of the scenario or overtly interjecting myself into what I preceive as a potentially bad scenario, I have this thing about getting involved. Overt or covert, I can't help myself :D

I've been in the business of helping people in trouble for so long, it's just my nature now I suppose.

[Guantes]

I kind of suspected what your answer would be. I have enjoyed the same experiences myself.

I have reached the age where when the wife and I are hiking we could be perceived as the prey. I have noticed the possiblity a couple of times and even with my attempts to look frail something has made those I suspected as evil doers decide otherwise.

[Brownie]

Guantes,

My buddies would tell me I was "trolling" when I did that same thing at times. Somehow the baddies just know you are not prey, even when you try to make yourself appear that way. :D

I understand and definately relate completely your last posts thought process sir. ;)

My wife has this sense of my possible impending actions by my demeanor at this point. I usually get the "don't start" look or a slight tug on the arm.

[Guantes]

Sir,
I understand completely about the wife thing. Being a pretty mellow guy I go along with pretty much anything mine wants. The exception is when I say "now", she does exactly as I instruct.

[JMusic]

Gentlemen you are asking for trouble, ain't it fun!!! I've told many of my civi friends you have no idea how easy it is to become prey. Working a tactical squad that is what we did. We would appear to be Joe civi and hope some scumbag would try to take advantage. I was shocked at first but after awhile learned to expect it. You are right. They know who to F### with and who not to. Not sure how, but they do. You guys look at this the same as I. I took an oath and swore to God that I would be the tip of the spear. There was no expiration limit or time line like 8-5 when I made this oath. I honor it today just as if I am still getting paid. My wife gives me the pat. Pat on the leg or arm but it means "down boy". What an angel. Guys its a pleasure talking with you. Take care.
Jim

[Brownie]

:D :D

:cool:

[Dave James]

First thing I always did with our pants was have the "jack" pocket on the leg enlarged, to fit my 20 oz TEXAN, DAMN!!!! THat thing would ring your bells..

ONe of the first female types I worked with was a little sawed off X meter maid, who had rolled over to the local PD,, she was all of about 5' in 2" heels:D , she carried a "spring jack" and it was about 12 or 13 oz's as I remember.. Her nic name on the street was "Slap Jack Sally",,

It was handed to her after popp'en a flasher on theo street one night..

"Hey lady,, what cha think?" Her retort " Not much, how's this feel?":D

Where apon she inpressed his memeber with her jack:D :D