Thumbs Forward or Locked Down?

[Brownie]

Which two handed hold do you use?

1. The thumbs pointing toward the threat?
a. How long have you used that technique?
b. Where did you learn to use it?

2. The support/off side thumb locking the strong hand thumb down?
a. How long have you used that technique?
b. Where did you learn to use it.

3. Have you ever experimented with both, what were your observations
between the two?

4. Which do you feel gives you greater recoil control and why?

[The Searcher]

I shot for many years before encountering formal training. I learned to shoot with a loose thumbs forward style perhaps due to shooting revolvers with large grips or maybe that's just what seemed comfortable to me. I have been taught the thumb locking method.

Either works and I have not noticed a difference in the recoil management.

I find the locking method tiring during long range sessions so I revert to thumbs forward.

FWIW, I shot tens of thousands of rounds through 1911's before being taught to lock the thumb and have never knocked the safety up into the on position unless I intended to do so. I used original sized safeties not the aftermarket monsters so that may be a difference. YMMV.

[DocH]

Thumbs forward with an auto,locked down with a revolver.Just always done it that way. Doing what feels natural to me with each type.

[Matthew Temkin]

Thumbs locked down for all handguns.
With a two hold grip I cross my weak thumb on top of my strong thumb.

[RAM]

Thumbs loose, unless it's a tense situation, usually stacked, support over top of firing thumb. Learned a FS about 4 years ago. Typical FS weaver stance taught at FS.

Looking forward to learning your threat focused techniques.

Brownie,

What are your thumbs doing in your two handed hold?

[Brownie]

I use the same method as Matt Temkin.

Weak hand thumb locking the firing hand thumb onto the grip. I was taught that way, it has always been good to me and I can't see changing something thats been successful at recoil control for me for years.

I've tried thumbs forward, just did not like it, nor did I feel I had the same recoil control over the gun. I understand that many do feel that method has more control, and have seen some great thumbs forward shooters who don't have recoil issues using it and can shoot quite well, so I think it all comes down to personal preference.

[Ankeny]

Thumbs forward with an auto,locked down with a revolver.Just always done it that way. Doing what feels natural to me with each type.
Same here. I learned my revolver grip from my wheel gun shooting coach, the semi-auto grip from competition shooters. With a semi-auto, if I lock my thumbs I end up with a void between my strong hand and the left grip panel.

[Spooky8]

Semi-Auto, thumbs forward, but not touching gun, odd for some, deadly effective for me. Revolver, thumbs forward, but touching gun.

Spooky8

Out :)

[sweatnbullets]

Like RAM , I am MT's trained at FS. They spent a lot of time getting me to have my thumbs high and relaxed. It works for controlled pairs where the speed of the shot is slower due to the sight picture inbetween every shot. It became obvious to me that this was a very slow form of shooting. Accurate....absolutely, but definitely slower.

Since I saw the real speed in which a HG could be shot in Tucson last October, I have gone away from my MT training. I have gone away from the high thumbs, and the isometric tension of the Weaver stance.

I am in more of a Mod. Iso. now and I have decide to go with the thumbs locked down. Thumbs forward is just not comfortable with my revolvers. As a matter of fact I found that my thumbs interfered with my trigger work on my J-frame. Another reason I went with the thumbs locked down is the amount of one handed shooting I am doing now. It definitely helps with my recoil control which gives me faster follow up shots.

[Ankeny]

Just so I am clear, is high thumbs similar to thumbs foward but more relaxed and possibly sticking straighter up?

[Brownie]

by thumbs locked down do you mean the support hand thumb is crossed over the top of the strong hand thumb

Yes sir

Thumbs forward would be the strong hand thumb resting on top of the support hand thumb?

Yes sir, I picture this as the classic two handed hold used by most in the competitions.

[Guantes]

Locked down on everything, just the way I have always done it.

[sweatnbullets]

Just so I am clear, is high thumbs similar to thumbs foward but more relaxed and possibly sticking straighter up?

That would be correct.

[RAM]

Like RAM , I am MT's trained at FS. They spent a lot of time getting me to have my thumbs high and relaxed. It works for controlled pairs where the speed of the shot is slower due to the sight picture inbetween every shot. It became obvious to me that this was a very slow form of shooting. Accurate....absolutely, but definitely slower.

Since I saw the real speed in which a HG could be shot in Tucson last October, I have gone away from my MT training. I have gone away from the high thumbs, and the isometric tension of the Weaver stance.

I am in more of a Mod. Iso. now and I have decide to go with the thumbs locked down. Thumbs forward is just not comfortable with my revolvers. As a matter of fact I found that my thumbs interfered with my trigger work on my J-frame. Another reason I went with the thumbs locked down is the amount of one handed shooting I am doing now. It definitely helps with my recoil control which gives me faster follow up shots.

S&B

I thought I was getting pretty fast... Last two times I took the Advanced Handgun Test I was only down 6 points (down 20 is DG), not bad for an old fart. But reading the posts here on TFF is making me anxious to train with you all to find out how fast an old fart can really go when not in a stiff wind :eek:

[JMusic]

My thumbs lock into each other. Not sure what that is called.
Jim

[sweatnbullets]

S&B

I thought I was getting pretty fast... Last two times I took the Advanced Handgun Test I was only down 6 points (down 20 is DG), not bad for an old fart. But reading the posts here on TFF is making me anxious to train with you all to find out how fast an old fart can really go when not in a stiff wind :eek:

Apples and oranges Ram. This type of training is completly different. FS is a marksmanship course, which is a piece of the puzzle. Our course is an entirely different piece of the puzzle. Everything is within typical gunfight distances (inside of seven yards.) Speed and exceptable accuracy during dynamic drills is the order of the day. Establishing new limitations is the ultimate goal.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Thumbs-down, despite the valiant attempts of some trainers to "teach me better".

[RAM]

Apples and oranges Ram. This type of training is completly different. FS is a marksmanship course, which is a piece of the puzzle. Our course is an entirely different piece of the puzzle. Everything is within typical gunfight distances (inside of seven yards.) Speed and exceptable accuracy during dynamic drills is the order of the day. Establishing new limitations is the ultimate goal.


I agree 100%.

Looking to expand the horizons (read: add a new tool to the box).

:)

[Matthew Temkin]

Thumbs-down, despite the valiant attempts of some trainers to "teach me better".
I am glad to hear someone of your military experience say that, since I thought all of you guys had eaten the thumbs forward position Kool Aid.
Roger is correct that thumbs forward (TF) is not practical for a revolver.
I have also seen it cause functioning problems with certain semi automatics.
Two good reasons for it's demise, IMHO.
Hate to say it, but TF is yet another competition developed technique which, IMHO, is not a good idea for combat.

[Dino]

I started shooting with the thumbs locked down, switched to the thumbs foward around 10 or 12 yrs. ago. It works for me however I never try and change someone who shoots well another way. To each his own.

[Roundeyesamurai]

I am glad to hear someone of your military experience say that, since I thought all of you guys had eaten the thumbs forward position Kool Aid.
Roger is correct that thumbs forward (TF) is not practical for a revolver.
I have also seen it cause functioning problems with certain semi automatics.
Two good reasons for it's demise, IMHO.
Hate to say it, but TF is yet another competition developed technique which, IMHO, is not a good idea for combat.

There are other dissenters besides me! :p

Truthfully, it does have its place, and I won't say that I have never used it. It's just that that place is a relatively rare one.

[JMusic]

After reading whats what I'm locked down.

[RandyDTC]

The thumb position depends largely upon the overall shooting position and how the body is orientated in relation to the target.

ISO - thumbs forward.

CAR - shooting hand's thumb forward - support hand's thumb vertical.

The thumbs forward grip also leaves little to no gap in the area between the 'meaty' parts of the thumbs. This would be the bottom left side of the grip for a right handed shooter. The cross thumbs grip does leave a gap here.

I have found that *for me* the thumbs forward provides better recoil management than thumbs crossed. Certainly this is somewhat of a subjective 'measurement' but I have shot and tested both ways using a timer. The test was: as soon as the front sight quits bouncing and I have a clear sight picture, pull the trigger. I found that I get better split times and also better hits on the target with the thumbs forward grip over the cross thumb grip.

The positions used in CAR worked better than either of these others with this particular test.

Randy

[Ankeny]

All of the agencies in my area teach TF, but I don't think any of them really care what their officers use as long as they can qualify. On those occasions when I drew a semi-auto pistol on the job with a TF grip, I didn't realize I was screwing up and neither did my boss.

[Matthew Temkin]

All of the agencies in my area teach TF, but I don't think any of them really care what their officers use as long as they can qualify. On those occasions when I drew a semi-auto pistol on the job with a TF grip, I didn't realize I was screwing up and neither did my boss.
No one is claiming that you screwed up.
But quite a few TF proponents claim that I did just that when I used a TD position to take my perps at gunpoint.
I think Dino said it best, and I want rookie shooters out there to know that there are alternatives to TF and that they should use what works best for them.
Kind of hard for them to do so with so many instructors jumping on them for doing "it" wrong.

[Ankeny]

Actually, I was smiling when I said "screwing up". I keep forgetting the Internet doesn't support facial expressions. I agree, folks need to know what works, what doesn't work, what fits them, and then make an informed decision.

Here's a good example. Every IPSC shooter knows the index finger of the support hand has no business being wrapped around the front of the trigger guard. But someone forgot to tell the current World Champion, lol.

[Matthew Temkin]

Actually, I was smiling when I said "screwing up". I keep forgetting the Internet doesn't support facial expressions. I agree, folks need to know what works, what doesn't work, what fits them, and then make an informed decision.

Here's a good example. Every IPSC shooter knows the index finger of the support hand has no business being wrapped around the front of the trigger guard. But someone forgot to tell the current World Champion, lol.
Good for the world champion.
But for many of my students--who are either police or high risk security---such a technique runs a very real danger of throwing their shots off target.
Which may get them KILLED!!!!
My guys shoot not for sport, but for real.
And, IMHO, the twain shall rarely (never say never) meet.

[Bugaboo]

RH thumb bent down pushing into the palm, LH thumb resting on it from the top locking it.
Tested both, TF first. Advantage of the TD showed when I wanted to test Glock in .357 SIG caliber one haded. This Pistol kicked like a mule I thought I will drop the gun but it was only feeling, it stayed firmly in my hand and hits were OK.
But no two pairs of hands are the same, test both under stress and use what works for you.

[Brownie]

Ron,

I shoot with the support index finger in the front of the trigger guard. I've never done it any other way. I don't feel I have the same control if it is below the guard.

I find this to be conducive to keeping the trigger finger from pulling the weapon off target [ for me that would be to the right ].

I don't suggest either way to students [ support finger under the guard or on the guard ], and let them tell me that which makes them feel more comfortable with a two hand hold.

Some peoples fingers are just not long enough to be able to comfortably put the suppport index finger in front of the trigger guard and it also can be a case of the size of the weapon they are shooting.

My own hand is medium to small in size and I've never found a handgun I could not shoot with the support index finger on the trigger guard.

[7677]

With a revolver, I shoot with my thumbs down one and two handed. I shoot most autos thumbs down one handed and thumbs forward two handed.

[5shot]

I think DR's Quickfire use thumbs forward.

Just as you can very effectively point with your index fingers, you can effectively point with your thumbs forward. It jis a bit awkward.

[7677]

I think DR's Quickfire use thumbs forward.

Just as you can very effectively point with your index fingers, you can effectively point with your thumbs forward. It jis a bit awkward.

If you are referring to DR middlebrooks, then you mean Fistfire. Quick Fire is what the military teaches.

[Brownie]

In "Shooting to Live", on page 31, it is recommended that the firing hand thumb be "fully extended and pointing forward in the same plane as the pistol barrel", "as an aid to accurate pointing" with an automatic like the 1911.

On page 60 [ page 48 on the books marker ], the two handed hold is shown in figure 15A. Both thumbs are facing forward in the illustration.

This illustration is showing the exact same two handed method used by the majority of the competition shooters. Interesting isn't it?

[Roundeyesamurai]

I think DR's Quickfire use thumbs forward.

Just as you can very effectively point with your index fingers, you can effectively point with your thumbs forward. It jis a bit awkward.

Oh nevermind, it's not worth it.

:rolleyes:

[Ankeny]

My guys shoot not for sport, but for real.
And, IMHO, the twain shall rarely (never say never) meet.

The comments I made about the finger in front of the trigger guard were to point out that what works for one person may not work for another. But as usual, you manage to get one more little dig at the competition shooters. You just can't give it a break can you?

[Brownie]

Ron,

Not sure if you saw my previous post, so here it is again:

In "Shooting to Live", on page 31, it is recommended that the firing hand thumb be "fully extended and pointing forward in the same plane as the pistol barrel", "as an aid to accurate pointing" with an automatic like the 1911.

On page 60 [ page 48 on the books marker ], the two handed hold is shown in figure 15A. Both thumbs are facing forward in the illustration.

This illustration is showing the exact same two handed method used by the majority of the competition shooters. Interesting isn't it?

Apparently Fairbairn and Sykes thought the thumbs forward [ in both one and two handed shooting ], was desireable. It appears as though the real world conclusions of yesteryear have melded nicely with the competition world of today, and have much more in common than at first glance, the twain having met in this instance, at least.

[Matthew Temkin]

The comments I made about the finger in front of the trigger guard were to point out that what works for one person may not work for another. But as usual, you manage to get one more little dig at the competition shooters. You just can't give it a break can you?
I am not digging at competition shooters.
I am, however, taking exception with certain techniques invented by/for competition and then being sold as a "Holy Grail" for combat----without any combat validity/proof. Just because something works in competition does not necessairly mean that it will work in combat.
Then again ,there are things done in competition that are just as valid for self defense.
But I think we should tread very carefully before dismissing decades of proven techniques for those devised in sport shooting.
Ron,I have been teaching combat shooting for a long time.
I have heard many sad stories from cops who were forced to defend themselves and...never mind.
One day we should discuss this over a cold one and perhaps I can better explain why I am the way I am.

[Matthew Temkin]

Ron,

Not sure if you saw my previous post, so here it is again:

In "Shooting to Live", on page 31, it is recommended that the firing hand thumb be "fully extended and pointing forward in the same plane as the pistol barrel", "as an aid to accurate pointing" with an automatic like the 1911.

On page 60 [ page 48 on the books marker ], the two handed hold is shown in figure 15A. Both thumbs are facing forward in the illustration.

This illustration is showing the exact same two handed method used by the majority of the competition shooters. Interesting isn't it?

Apparently Fairbairn and Sykes thought the thumbs forward [ in both one and two handed shooting ], was desireable. It appears as though the real world conclusions of yesteryear have melded nicely with the competition world of today, and have much more in common than at first glance, the twain having met in this instance, at least.
Fairbairn did indeed show shooting with the thumb forward, but he did add a "If possible" provision to that.
Applegate preferred a thumb down hold, as do I.
Bottom line?
Either will work and let the shooter decide what works best for him.

[rwleonard]

New guy here, first post. I switched from thumbs locked to thumbs forward a few years back because the guys kicking my butt every weekend shot that way. (It was actually a bigger shift, from Weaver to the IPSC-type Isoceles, the grip change being part of it.)

I find the modern IPSC-style technique gives me better, faster hits under more varied conditions than other techniques I have tried. I also find it to hold up under stress better, at least for me.

Rick

[kilogulf59]

Thumbs locked down for all handguns.
With a two hold grip I cross my weak thumb on top of my strong thumb.

Ditto.

It seems the most natural and comfortable for me. I believe Fairbairn and Sykes recommended thumbs pointing forward but it doesn't work for me.

[Matthew Temkin]

Ditto.

It seems the most natural and comfortable for me. I believe Fairbairn and Sykes recommended thumbs pointing forward but it doesn't work for me.
Roger that.
Hey, it just means that I do not agree 100% with F&S.

[JMusic]

I like Brownie wrap my weak hand index finger around the triggerguard. I believe it gives you more control. I usually have both thumbs down though I sometimes will extend my strong hand thumb forward.

My veiw is this, I have been an instinctive shooter since the late 60's. I also can use sights very quickly and do during some hunting adventures. Open, peep, scoped and red dots I have them all. I am not as quick short range with sights as I am shooting instinctively. My belief is this style of shooting is like wing shooting at very fast moving targets. I see it as no more comp-licated or contraversial than that. Fire away:D
Jim

[kilogulf59]

Roger that.
Hey, it just means that I do not agree 100% with F&S.

Hey, neither do I...It's split equally with Applegate...:cool:

Really though, "use what works, discard what doesn't"...just don't be closed minded about it.
I use to place my left index finger on the trigger guard but found I get less control that way. It's a hard habit to break now.