Police guns-what do YOU think?

[DocH]

I've noticed this topic has come up on several other forums that I occasionally visit and has recently become a topic of some conversation with local LEO's,some of them old school,like myself.
I've posted this in the auto pistol section as we just don't see too many revolvers anymore in the holsters of uniform cops.
I have very strong opinions about issue police sidearms even tho I am no longer an active LEO.These opinions have been formed over the course of many years from my own experiences and those of others that I have witnessed or at least am familiar with.
The majority of my street pokice work was during the decade of the seventies and into the mid eighties. Are the advances in handgun design since then really advances or have we forgotten some lessons of the past?
We all know,and it has been discussed before here on TFF,about the prevalence of gun grabs in those days. It was a very real concern then,and I believe it still is although I admit that I don't hear of it as often now as I once did. It still remains a sore point for me personally and I have been quite vocal with my own opinions on this matter.
Everyone here knows by now that I am a fan of Glock pistols.There are several in the household and a couple of them have really been put through the wringer.Rode hard and put up wet,so to to speak,and have contiued to function flawlessly and put bullets where they need to go.
Glock now seems to hold the lion's share of the police market in addition to the Glocks in the hands of civilians and some military not only here in the US,but the world over. There's a good reason for that. Toughness and rekliability in the extreme,especially in the 9mm models.

Weapon retention techniques and retention holsters began to be developed in those days as a result of the gun grab phenomenon.In a fight for the sidearm,retention of the gun is as important to survival as the draw stroke and getting the rounds where they need to go. Even being skilled in these areas one can still lose the gun to an opponent in a fight of that nature,and knowing this is where I take issue with the Glock as an issue sidearm. I know I'm strring the pot here,and it'll probably sizzle by the time I'm through,but I am interested in your thought s on the subject,especially if you've been active LEO iin he past,or perhaps still are.
I want to cite a couple of incidents which have been insrumental in the developement of my feelings on this.
General issue police sidearms should have manuel safetys! Here are just a couple of reasons why I feel this way.

1. A local officer(in the late 70's) made a traffic stop at night,alone in the middle of town in a bank parking lot. To make a long story short he was overpowered and beaten severely by a really bad dude. He was disarmed of his personally owned Browing Hi Power and pistol whipped with it,inflicting some very serious and potentially life threatening injuries.Although there were 4 people in the suspect vehicle this one "very bad dude" did most of the beating. The suspect then attempted to shoot the officer with the Browning.It was cocked and locked and would not fire.The perp released the magazine,mistaking the mag release button for a crossbolt type safety like the ones found on some shotguns,effectively disabeling the pistol even further. The officer,even tho beaten into a stupor ,remembers the perp saying," This piece of s--- won't even shoot.' He then kicked the downed officer several more times before leaving the scene. The officer could have died from the beating,but was saved from being shot and from certain death by the safety features of that outstanding service arm.

2. In late 1973 several of us,eight to be exact,found some S&W Mod 39-2 pistols(hard to come by then) at J.B.Maszk's gun shop in Bunnel,Fla. We ordered them on a department letterhead for the sum of $89.00 each,police price. This is one of the best feeling handguns I have ever held in my hand and it possessed all of the features that I absolutely detest in a fighting pistol! Double action first shot and a magazine disconnect safety. these same features are also what made it a good auto pistol for uniform carry,at least in those days. In the dirt back lot of a local honkey tonk one night,I was in a fight for retention of that gun with a large and very strong opponent while my partner was engaged with another one. No walkie talkie mikes on our shoulder. No way to call for backup. It was win or possibly die. I was able to release the magazine during the struggle,and then concentrate on stronger measures to end that fight,which I did. Once keeping a hot weapon out of the hands of my opponent ceased to be the top priority,I was able to settle the matter by other means. The safety features of this pistol are what allowed me to accomplish this.
He was much bigger and stronger than me. Ignorance of firearms function by the opponent can be helpful too,but we can't always count on that.

3. A local officer was killed with his partner's "lost "S&W Mod.19,in a fight inside a residence. June 10,1972.
It was a simple matter. Point gun,pull trigger. Same thing with a Glock.

Glocks are built for battle.There's no denyihg that.It has been proven. That's a settled fact. Are they a good general purpose police sidearm. I don't think so,especially for the lone patrol officer.
What do YOU think? And why?


Doc

[Brownie]

Good post on retention and safety devices of sidearms Doc, a subject thats very important to officers on the streets, no matter what generation or decade we are talking about.

For the same reason I've mostly gone to glocks [ they need no intervention of safety levers/buttons/etc to get into operation and hence are faster and simpler for me to operate under stress ] has at the same time a two edged sword of having a perp get control of the gun and just fire without needing to know the operation of the pistol or how to get that safety device disengaged to use it against me [ or an LE on the street ].

I wonder how many officers have been killed/mamed/injured from not being able to get the gun out of a triple retention holster fast enough to save theirs or anothers life?

And the two edged sword of that equation, how many officers have been saved from a gun grab at the holster by these retention holsters?

If I had my way, the "rings" that were made in the 80's and would only let the one wearing the ring/s fire the weapon would be the best of both worlds. I have a ring on each finger that will disengage the safety of the weapon and allow it to fire. It gets stolen, or taken from me, no one can use the damned thing, it's now a paperweight. Something along the lines of this technology or even better systems which could be developed may be very good for the officers on the streets. It would allow them to use holsters that released the gun without doing a jig to get it out [ fast drawstrokes under the gun sorta speak when thats what just may be needed at that time ], and at the same time protect the officer from having his gun used against him on the streets.

My present carry is dictated by not having manual safeties or the requirement of any of my fingers to have to snick a safety off on my sidarms. I came to the realization that a 1911 type gun just was not going to be for me any longer [ after something over 2 decades of carrying one regularly ] was that new EMP I bought and carried for awhile. I really like that gun, but it is gone. It's too much money to keep lying around in the safe [ and I can't help myself when it comes to something nice that arrives at the shop that seems weekly lately :D ]

These last weeks has seen me go to the HK-PSP squeeze cocker 9mm. 8+1 giving up one rd from the EMP's capacity. It is totally amb-dextrous in operation. A perp gets it, he'll likely not understand the squeeze cocking system of operation and not be able to use it against me for a few seconds. It requires no manipulation of levers and such by fingers to shoot it. It only requires squeezing the grip which fits perfect with my drawstroke.

I'll be back to the G17 in the cooler weather, I'm not that happy about 9 rds on tap before a reload while working the shop.

[Dave James]

Doc, I would say that the improvements, are a nessecary evil that where dictated by the lowering of standards and hiring practices of the late 70-90's.

The rush to issue the newer semis and to do away with the tried and true wheel guns, swept the nation, the first issue models with the lever safeties like the 1911's and such and then the S&W models, where good the Officer who was taught well understood the need to keep it on safe and or the use of the mag disconnect.

Then the LCD's began to take over,crying and whining about this and that and training took a dive. and lo and behold the DAO's and the newer safe actions arrived.

But as you say the training for retention and fighting didn't advance with them.

But all in all I think there are a good thing,,when I first started patrol work back inthe early 70's I worked with old timers that still bitched about givening up there SA colts and going to those new double actions,and to a man refused to carry a round under the hammer,or left the next chamber empty as an officer safety thing.

If all was prefect and I was the boss, I would give the option of 1911's any type that functioned from the box, P35's and any doundle/single action auto that had a safety such as the 39's did.


Know what you mean about the 39, mine was nickled single sided safety had a local guy built me a 4 mag pouch that fit the belt, true irovy grips and loaded with the new 90 SUPER-VEL. HOT DAMN SHE WAS A SMOKER!!!!

[DocH]

Brownie and Dave ,thanks for the responses so far.
Dave,you're right about the autos,other than some transitional training in the beginning of the switch to autos the training seemed to get dumbed down as far as retention training and a fight for the gun.
After our officer was killed,and before we got the 39's we started carrying the first chamber of our wheelies empty,theorizing that if our gun was taken the perp would be shocked momentarily when it didn't fire,allowing us to get to our BUGS carried in inverted shoulder rigs under the jacket or shirt.
As Chuck Berry said,we were "studying hard and hoping to pass" figuring ways to outsmart the bad boys.
We got the 39's before everyone started switching to autos.It's the only DA/SA auto I've ever liked because it fit so well.Also single sided safety.
I have a early edition all steel Mod.539 now,simply because I liked that gun and it still feels better than anything else in the hand.No recoil at all with that one.Nada! But I'm trying to keep it as minty as possible.
Still interested in hearing others opinions.

Brownie ,you're right about that little H&K.Only a gun person would probably know the operation of that piece.The run of the mill street thug would most likely have to take some time to figure it out.Time enough to get him with one of those pig stickers of yours! Another excellant"old timer."

[JMusic]

"Doc, I would say that the improvements, are a nessecary evil that where dictated by the lowering of standards and hiring practices of the late 70"-90's.

I'll have you know DJ I was hired in the 70's by one of the greatest Presidents ever. President Jimmy Carter! :p :p

I too had a 39-2. Loved the gun. Being left handed it had certain advantages tha came in handy. As DJ indicated you could get some crankers for it too. I had to trade mine to a model 15 to qualify with. Bought me a GP couple years later. I posted several of my thoughts on retention holsters, gun take away protection, and mind set. I'll follow up after I think about this some.

[David Williams]

Doc - good discussion.

One thing that I always wonder about when I start talking weapons retention are the statistics on the frequency of gun grabs as a trend over the years.
I have an uneducated theory that there are significantly fewer gun-grab attempts today than there were 20 years ago simply because the guys who are going to try to grab a cop's weapon are more likely to have a weapon of their own and are likely to use it first. However, that aside...

In another post (http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7979#post7979) on TFF, I made the comment that gun grabs aren't likely to occur as the initiating attack, when we're unaware of what's going on. No, they're going to occur in situations where we should already be in a state of elevated alert, and probably as only a small part of a larger physical struggle.

Within the context of Doc's original question, I am inclined to agree that weapons with no external or manual safeties are more of a liability any time a cop finds him/herself in a physical struggle. If a dude manages to get your weapon away from you, the 2 seconds that he spends jacking around with your safety might just mean the difference between going home and not. The idea is that anyone grabbing your gun is not likely a firearms expert, and besides that, isn't going to be familiar with your weapon in particular.
In a high-stress situation, the person who grabs the gun is just going to point it and start pulling the trigger. Depending on how complex the safety mechanism is, an officer could potentially have more than enough time to react.

Jim and I have discussed certain aspects of weapons retention in the past, and I certainly have my own take on what it means to be in a fight where someone is trying to get your weapon away from you... but I think that my answer to Doc's question is that there should probably be at least one external safety on a cop's duty weapon.

[DocH]

Dave I think we are in agreement on all the points you made.I believe statistically there are not as many gun grab attempts now as in past years,as I mentioned earlier I don't hear of them often anymore and I'm in a position to get the local info at least first hand.
Part of that ,as you mentioned ,is probably the fact that there are more armed bad guys now than 20 or 30 years ago.
One point you made that I am in total agreement with is the fact that the officer is probably going to be in a state of heightened alertness already due to a specific situation that he's in where a grab could occur.
In my own case both take away attempts that I have had were totally unexpected. In the case with the 39 auto the guy grabbed my gun from behind.We weren't even interested in him ,and he was not going to be arrested until this occured. In the other instance I had arrested a female inside a residence only after she attacked me. The male who lived there and originally wanted her removed due to her drunken condition was the one who put his hand on the butt of my revolver,but I was ready for that one and he paid for it(as did the other guy,in the other case.)
All very good points you make,and especially where the safeties are concerned. They've been proven lifesavers in my area,at least.Thanks for your thoughts.

[David Williams]

In my own case both take away attempts that I have had were totally unexpected. In the case with the 39 auto the guy grabbed my gun from behind.We weren't even interested in him ,and he was not going to be arrested until this occured.

That situation is just one of those things you can never plan for; the random dude slipping up behind you completely out of the blue and making a grab. While I don't doubt this kind of stuff still happens, I would lay odds that it doesn't happen much, especially in comparison to gun grabs that occur while the officer is in a struggle. What I think is interesting, though, is the amount of effort that is put into training techniques to counter the out-of-the-blue grab vs. the grab during a knock-down, drag-out fight. Many times I've seen police trainers focus 80% of their effort on 20% of their problem - meaning that they spend a lot of time teaching counters for a gun grab that is the least likely to happen, but relatively little or no effort teaching officers how to deal with having to retain your weapon with a 250 lbs brawler tossing you around, or while two dudes kick the crap out of you on the side of the highway.

This is where I think there is significant room for improvement. In my mind, only one thing needs to be taught with respect to the out-of-the-blue gun grab: if anything touches the duty belt, it gets broken. Instantly, violently, no questions.
However, substantial time and effort needs to be put into how to deal with keeping your gun during an all out brawl, because that's where it's most likely to happen. Unfortunately, I don't see much of this.

[DocH]

Looks like this one has about run it's course.Thanks to all who thought about it and gave your opinions. One side note tho;
I'm married to a woman who thinks she was an interior decorator in a previous life,so the remodeling never ends around here.:) Had a slow day the other day,tho,and was scanning back over some old threads on the S&W Forum. I mentioned having a Mod. 39-2 at one time and was surprised to find that many who own or have owned them in the past really liked these pistols,mostly for the great ergonomics and natural pointing.
Dave James and Jim Music also both said they really liked the gun and that's a pretty good endorsement right there,IMO.
I had previously thought that I was probably in the minority in my fondness for these pistolas,but I find now that is not the case at all.
Interesting. Who'd a thunk it?

[DocH]

Sorry,I forgot to add something. Brownie mentioned the rings worn on the index fingers that magnetically unlocked the otherwise locked mechanism of Smith & Wesson revolvers. This was one of the best things to ever come along. I never had one,but knew another officer who did as soon as they became available. It worked perfectly.
Something like this that could be adapted for Glocks,Sigs,and other autos would be a great thing for today's uniform patrol officer.
Getting into the dangerous area of so called "smart guns"now,but something user proprietary for cops would be a good thing,IMO. I would never trust anything electronic ,though

[JMusic]

I say one thing and practice something else when it comes to this issue. Yeah I say protect your weapon at all times but other than body position and required gear I put little effort into it. I never considered a handgun as a safety advantage that had external safeties. In fact I often carried my BP cocked and unlocked with a thumbbreak as a protective strap.

On a few occasions I have removed my weapon before entering a bar. I always felt the most vulnerable during these bar intrusions to stop a fight or what have you. For the most part I had it easier than most of the patrol guys for I was in plain clothes most of the time.

Doc is right though in the early -mid 70's there was a rash of LEO's being disarmed and killed with their own weapon. I don't recall much effort in SD techniques but most efforts being aimed at equipment upgrades and awareness. Some advanced units were taught how to keep the muzzles closer to the body but beyond that I can't recall anything profound.

We were issued about this time a clamshell holster that had to be turned as you drew. It held the weapon very well in fact a patrol officer was attacked by a large strong man (revolving door type) who couldn't get the weapon out so he simply pulled it off the officers Sam Browne belt and shot him with it.

But to get the the root of the question. No I did not consider the safety aspects of the handgun when purchasing. My priorities were this. Firepower, ease of concealement, and accuracy. As far as having my weapon used on me I practice weapons retention offense, and took that role very serious.

Jim

[Sean]

When I was uniformed LE...I carried in a Safariland SSIII triple retention holster. I practiced, practiced, practiced with it, until it was second nature. It had the advantage of being available in models for both wheelguns and autos (We were allowed to carry both with SO).

I only ever had one gun-grab attempt in a tussle. It felt like he was going to tear my belt off, but he never got my 1911 even close to out of the holster before I had him (and ME) bloodied and him cuffed up. The guy was like wrestling a darned gorilla on speed!

Nowadays I don't even put a thumbreak on holsters I make for my own use. Concealed means CONCEALED and a properly molded holster will give you all the retention you could ever need for "fall out" needs.

As for gun-grab attempts now...I can't speak to that. I have been out of uniform since 1990, and out of LE since 1998 when I was hurt.

Holster technology continues to improve, and Safariland set the high watermark with the SSIII, but that still doesn't mean we shouldn't drill in weapon-retention techniques.

I know...the preacher hath preached to the chior....amen.

[Guantes]

Been a busy summer so I haven't been around much, I saw this thread and thought I would throw in my two cents.

While I agree to some extent with most of what has been said about safties, holsters and the lowering of standards and training, I believe there is another factor that plays some part, possibly a large part.

I think one of the biggest detremints to the safety of LE has been the rush to PC LE, including the move to OC and other synthetic (non-physical) control measures, while eliminating useful tools like saps. First off I only had a few half hearted gun grabs while working, but I had plenty of fights. Being only 5'8" 165 lbs it was fairly common to encounter larger and stronger AH's. What made the difference in fights as well as gun grabs was not fighting on their terms. Once it started, I found that a pound and a half of Gonzee very quickly turned the tide on even very large and strong opponents. AN attempted gun grab would result in unconsciousness or a joint or bone broken or badly damaged.

[Brownie]

What made the difference in fights as well as gun grabs was not fighting on their terms. Once it started, I found that a pound and a half of Gonzee very quickly turned the tide on even very large and strong opponents. AN attempted gun grab would result in unconsciousness or a joint or bone broken or badly damaged.

Oh, Oh, I really like that thought process G :D . Good to see you post your thoughts, they are always succinct and based on experiences of the streets.

[DocH]

G, thanks for your comments.Always valuable and appreciated.I agree whole heartedly on the move to PC measures. When it gets physical then it needs to really get physical.
By the way,it appears that you and I are exactly the same height and weight,so you,of all people can understand why I had to get as violent as I did on some occasions. Got lucky a few times,too.:eek:

[Sean]

I was trained in the "Ask...Tell...MAKE" school of LE.

Ask reasonably, tell sternly, MAKE it happen.

My personal rule was..."A hand on ME costs YOU a broken bone right now."

BTW Guantes....I carried a sap every day....still do. :D

[DocH]

I was trained in the "Ask...Tell...MAKE" school of LE.

Ask reasonably, tell sternly, MAKE it happen.

My personal rule was..."A hand on ME costs YOU a broken bone right now."

BTW Guantes....I carried a sap every day....still do. :D A good rule to live by Sean, and still is.:)