Clearing the closed front garment

[sweatnbullets]

I have been showed many ways to do this. So far none have been completely satifactory. I came up with this procedure, never seen it never, heard of it, but I'm sure someone else is already doing it and has named it.

Take the firing side hand and grab the garment right below the gun.

Rip the garment out and up till the garment is held on the rib cage (makes no different where you wear the holster)

As you are ripping the garment out and up the support side hand is coming to the chest area as in the four count draw stroke. The support side hand presses the ripped garment against the torso and holds it in place.

The firing side hand goes down and aquires the firing grip and draws the gun.

The support side hand releases the garment and mates with the gun at count three.


What do you guys do? What is the most reliable? What facilitates the ability to get out of the kill zone as fast as possible?

[Guantes]

I won't be much help, I refuse to wear closed front garments and being retired I can wear what I like.

I don't like them. I think it is nearly impossible to make them fast and still have the off hand free for combatives.

I wear at 2:30-3:00. Gun hand goes back in a circular motion with fingers cupped that sweeps garment back, finger draw the gun, engaging the trigger during the draw. Basically an eu/ed I guess. .75-.85

[Desert Rat]

The method you are describing is usually referred to as the Hackathorn Rip, for gun guru Ken Hackathorn, I believe. Massad Ayoob demonstrated it in a article I read once.

I first started practicing this technique in the early ninties and it's the best way to clear a gun from under a shirt or sweater if you're in a hurry. It doesn't work so well if you are wearing a very long garment, though. I've bought some really long shirts before and tried the Rip out with them and found that I would grab the shirt and pull, and the gun would still be covered up by the extra length shirttail.

Beware of tight fitting coats using this technique as well. I once was practicing draws at home from under a fairly close fitting jacket that had a very stiff bottom hem, and as I grabbed the jacket and lifted, the hem caught the grip of my gun somehow and levered it up out of the holster. My gun hit the deck and I screamed like a girl as my nickel-plated Smith and Wesson M19 bounced across the floor. The revolver was unloaded, btw. I was just worried about the gun.

The point is, choosing the right clothes helps when using the Hackathorn Rip.

[Brownie]

I train through the mindset of the "startle response" draw. If I can draw reliably under those conditions defensively, I believe that offensive drawstrokes are a no brainer.

With that said,

I use a one handed draw for every situation. Overgarment [ which I'm usually wearing like a T-shirt ] and the open garments like a Pendleton or dungaree jacket.

I like the one handed drawstroke as it leaves my off hand free to "work" the situation if need be while drawing. Most one handed drawing is not as reliable as Rogers description, and so my work began to find something that was as reliable one handed.

I came up with what I use over a long time and experimentation. I wanted reliability of clearing the garment, one handed draw that was fast, and repeatable for either type of cover garment that had commonality.

I found a way to do this, and it works under the "startle response" conditions I set as the governing criteria.

[Roundeyesamurai]

I usually just stick the thumb up under the garment while drawing, draw, and then bring the gun out from under the garment and bring my thumb into its gripping position. The upright thumb keeps the gun from being tangled up in the garment.

[Brownie]

The one handed draw stroke I use:

[Dave James]

Do basicly the same,, only thing I change is with dress shirts and light weight jackets,,I still sew split shot into the seam to help movement

[sweatnbullets]

I've decided to go with two different methods in order to lower my risks of bungeling it. The "Hackathorn Rip" (thanks Desert Rat) has a very high success rate even under the most dynamic situations. It is one that I can depend on and I really like that.

For one handed method, I'm going with the brownie showed me. While not as reliable as the "rip," it is the most reliable one handed method that I have ever seen. The grab of the garment with the cup of the hand is much better that the "flagged" thumb, *for me.*

[Guantes]

A question re the Hakathorn Rip.
Why not just grab the garment with the off hand initially, then the strong hand goes right to the gun?:confused:

[sweatnbullets]

A question re the Hakathorn Rip.
Why not just grab the garment with the off hand initially, then the strong hand goes right to the gun?:confused:

My concerns would be with the ability to rip out and up. The "out" is to keep the shirt from hooking on to the HG and pulling it out of the holster.

[Roundeyesamurai]

A question re the Hakathorn Rip.
Why not just grab the garment with the off hand initially, then the strong hand goes right to the gun?:confused:

Two possible answers:

1) It makes too much sense;

2) Hackathorn wanted something unique, so that he'd have a "new" technique to name after himself.

[Desert Rat]

Okay guys, a quick clarification regarding the Hackathorn Rip. What I described as the Rip and what SNB describes are two different things. My bad.

The Rip is actually the technique described by Guantes. A very simple grab of the shirt by the off hand, rip the covering garment up over the pistol, and draw.

I was half asleep when I read SNBs description of his technique of beginning the draw using the firing hand to pull up the garment, and pinning it with the off hand. SNBs technique is entirely his own, so he should come up with a catchy name for it.

As far as the effectivness of the SNB Draw goes, I tried it with my XD in a kydex IWB rig with a couple of different shirts, and I've got to say, I like it. Normally, I like wearing longer shirts for carrying so when bending over or reaching up to get something I don't flash my gun to the sheeple and cause a panic. The only problem is getting those kinds of shirts up and out of the way reliably for a draw.

I don't like a quick draw using one hand only because in practicing my draw while moving or ducking I've wound up with a fistful of shirttail along with the gun, snagged the pistol coming out, etc. So the Hackathorn Rip is a more reliable answer. But even then, the Rip can occasionally fail, as I've stated.

The thing I like about the SNB Draw is that it is even more reliable the the Rip and not a whole lot slower. I found that it more reliably clears long shirts, getting the shirt farther up and completely out of the way of the pistol. That's smart to me. The last thing I'd want to do is grab my gun in a shootout and wind up with a handful of shirt as well.

Another reason I like it is that the weak hand doesn't have to travel completely across the chest to grab the shirt and pull up. With SNBs draw the off hand can stay at about center line, leaving it free for close quarters fending, blocking, and striking if the BG gets too close during the drawstroke.

Finally, it has one other advantage over the Rip that I like. When you execute a Hackathorn Rip, it looks like you are going for a gun. There's quite a bit of aggressive movement there, and in an SD moment looking like you are going for a gun can be a bad thing. It takes away the element of surprise. SNBs draw doesn't really look very aggressive, and it could confuse a BG and give you a couple of extra seconds to work with. It's a little more subtle than the Rip.

I'm going to play around with this concept a little more. I think getting a training partner to attack me while I work some different draws might be in order.

[sweatnbullets]

DR. Thanks for the honest and thorough analysist. You are hitting upon many of the same points as I did when I was messing around with it. The problems that I was looking to solve are simple.

How to get to the gun in a very effective and dependable manner.

A manner that dractically reduces the chances of missing the garment in the initial grab.

A way to gaurantee that the garment is out of the way and stays out of the way, so you do not end up with a fist full of shirt.

A clearance that helps facilitate dynamic movement out of the kill zone. With this type of movement I found that the dynamics of the garment changes. The twisting of the body, the wind generated by th initial explosion out of the kill zone, and the natural tendency to swing the arms to help facilitate the movement tend to leave the garment tighter to the body than from a static position.

Those were the problems, and I have to admit that it took me about three seconds to come up with my answer.

The full, firing side hand grasp of the garment is a very dependable motion.

It is your primary hand.

The dependability of "out and up" is a key factor.

It does not require some akward twisting or reaching of the support side hand that takes away from your ability to initiate your explosive movement out of the kill zone.

Reaching the support side hand around to your 4:00 is just not dependable and leaves very little very little room to pull "out and up."



Now what about the support side hand? This is where many people may decide that the clearance is not for them. As a Modern Techniques guy it is absolutely perfect. My default drawstroke brings my suppot side hand explosively to my pectoral region. This indexes my support hand in a position to aquire my count three (compressed ready.) So my thinking is if my hand is going to be coming there in most cases, (outside of bad breath distances) why not have it hold my garment up? I found that it worked perfecty and was extremely reliable and fast. It worked with appendix, at the 3:00 and at the 4:00 position. The support side hand did have to come further past the centerline at the 4:00 position. No big deal, it naturally knew where it needed to go with zero conscious thought.

I also found the the explosive movement of the support side hand to the pectoral region hepled facilitate my dynamic movement out of the kill zone.

I know, I know, I am still going to have to have a one handed draw. But the truth be told, there is no one handed draw (from a close front garment) that is as dependable as a two handed draw. I want to be as sure as I possibly can within the known context.

I came up with a catchy name, if this is inded my technique.

I call it "clearing a closed front garment.":cool: Kind of catchy isn't it? LMAO!

[steve2267]

I came up with a catchy name, if this is inded my technique.

I call it "clearing a closed front garment.":cool: Kind of catchy isn't it? LMAO!

Clearing A Closed Front Garment.

C-A-C-F-G
KAKF-GEE draw.... that K-F is a bit awkward... so drop the K... and refer to it as the KAFF-GEE draw. Developed by Sweatnbullets. :D

[sweatnbullets]

Clearing A Closed Front Garment.

C-A-C-F-G
KAKF-GEE draw.... that K-F is a bit awkward... so drop the K... and refer to it as the KAFF-GEE draw. Developed by Sweatnbullets. :D



STOP IT!:p

[Brownie]

The Sweatnbullets Ripper

The Sweatnbullets Strip, as in strip the shirt out of the way

The Sweatnbullets "Get er Done" Drawstroke

The Hawaiian Strip

My favorite----- The Las Vegas Strip:D

[Roundeyesamurai]

+1 for any variation on "the strip" :D

[sweatnbullets]

The Sweatnbullets Ripper

The Sweatnbullets Strip, as in strip the shirt out of the way

The Sweatnbullets "Get er Done" Drawstroke

The Hawaiian Strip

My favorite----- The Las Vegas Strip:D

KNOCK IT OFF!:D

I can see the headlines "Man uses the Roger Strip and dies violent death.":eek:

No thank you guys. I do not believe that the name "clearing the closed front garment" has been taken yet.;)

[Roundeyesamurai]

I can see the headlines "Man sees Roger strip and dies violent death.":eek:

There, fixed it for you! :p

[Brownie]

Desert Rat,

SNBs technique is entirely his own, so he should come up with a catchy name for it.

See what you started? He's got lots of friends helping on this.:D

[Desert Rat]

Hey, how's about this one.

The SNoB Strip! :D

Just to keep it short and sweet.

[Desert Rat]

Is SNB from Vegas? If so, I'm callin' it The Vegas Strip from here on out! That's too freakin' funny.

[Brownie]

I like the Vegas Strip myself. So it is spoken, so it shall be. Rogers "Vegas Strip" ;)

[Desert Rat]

Woo-Hoo! :D

[sweatnbullets]

"I hate you guys"

[Roundeyesamurai]

"I hate you guys"

And coincidentally, you being the mighty moderator of this forum and all, there's another Cartmanism for you:

RESPECT MY AUTHORITAH!

http://www.dvdork.com/uploads/sp23.jpg

[sweatnbullets]

I remember that picture....those were very good days.....now I just look like this when I am out on the range. Notice the "tactical" Hawaiian shirt.

"Just one day at a time."

[Roundeyesamurai]

I didn't know you wear glasses :confused: