Trigger Speed

[sweatnbullets]

What can be done to improve your speed on the trigger?

Are there any exercises?

Anyone ever heard of "twitch muscles"? If so, please give as much info as possible on the subject.

[Guantes]

SnB,
Tell you what I know which ain't much. There are fast twitch and slow twitch muscles. Actually there are two types of fast twitch, no I don't the difference b/t them. Fast twitch are for burst or fast maneuvers, where slow twitch are for efforts requiring more power. Fast twitch don't store or use oxygen like slow twitch. Some activities use a combination of both.

To improve trigger speed I do an exercise of 25-30 trigger pulls as fast as I can on a da revolver at least once a day. I also use those curled spring squeezers using only the trigger finger.

Not much help but its all I got.

[steve2267]

I also use those curled spring squeezers using only the trigger finger.


You got a link to a webpage or photo that shows this curled spring squeezer?

[Guantes]

Steve,

elitefts.com, look at accessories, then grip tools.
I haven't figured out yet how to post links with this new browser.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Gloves' answer is a good one, but there is also another important factor:

You see, when you flex or extend your finger, one muscle is working against another muscle. This isometric tension between muscles is what is responsible for the precise control of the finger. Without it, you wouldn't be able to perform finite tasks (such as threading a needle). "Jerking" the trigger is, in fact, a forcible suppression of isometric tension, in which you try to overcome the resistance of the extensor muscle by applying too much force, too quickly, with the flexor muscle.

The way around this to do the trigger pull very slowly, and release very slowly, repeatedly for a long period of time. This allows you to, over time, train the extensor muscle to relax more when depressing the trigger, and the flexor muscle to relax more when releasing the trigger.

Part of the paradox inherent in using a firearm is that under stress, the instinct is for both sets of muscles to simultaneously tense. An example of this, is to hold your hand open, tense the hand, and while tensing, make a fist. You will note significant resistance to closing your hand. If you then open your hand, remaining tense, you will likewise note significant resistance while opening it.

Gloves' answer of exercising the finger is equally necessary to improving trigger speed, especially with guns with heavier triggers (revolvers, for instance). Exercising the finger to be able to apply a given pressure repeatedly, evenly, and for long periods without fatigue, is a necessary type of conditioning to trigger speed. Remember also to practice the trigger work slow, so that your muscles learn when they need to do work, and when they need to let their opposite do work instead.

[steve2267]

Guantes,

When in your posting screen... click on the button at the top of your typing area that looks like this: http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/images/editor/createlink.gif. You'll get a pop-up window into which you can cut-and-paste a link to a web page. Also, if you click on the button that looks like http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/images/editor/insertimage.gif, you can then cut-and-paste an URL (the web address thingy at the top of your browser window) to an image.

Here are the griptools you mentioned: http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?cid=223. Were you referring to anyone in particular? Such as the GripMaster (http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=223&pid=1142)?

[Guantes]

Steve,
Thanks for the tip I'll try it next time.
I have a version of what's in the first link but, I saw the gripmaster and am thinking it might be good for isolating the trigger finger better.

[steve2267]

Steve,
Thanks for the tip I'll try it next time.
I have a version of what's in the first link but, I saw the gripmaster and am thinking it might be good for isolating the trigger finger better.

You mean you have a version of this?
http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/gripper-250%284%29%281%29.jpg

???

[Guantes]

Affirmative. Grab it with the crotch of the thumb on one side and just the trigger finger on the first joint on the other. Unless your trigger finger is stronger than mine you will not be able to completely compress it, but it is still exercising that finger. Mine has scalloped finger slots on one side which makes it easier.

[steve2267]

Is this kind of gripper that appears to have steel or aluminum knurled grips better than the plastic gripped variety for what you describe? I could see the plastic kind slipping if you only have the index finger and thumb wrapped around the squeezer.

[Guantes]

Mine has plastic grips and I don't have any trouble with slipage.

[Brownie]

I have one of those sitting near my recliner and do anywhere from 10-30 during a commercial. I exercise the whole hand/fingers though, and apply more pressure with the trigger finger of both hands [ yes, equal work to both hand strengths ]. Mine also is of the plastic variety, and it doesn't slip either.

I used to use it while on surveillances and sitting for long hours as well. Go till I could not go any longer and switch hands. Let them recover and start again.

Thats only for strength and I work a different exercise for trigger speed and development of my twitch muscles in the hand, concentrating on the trigger fingers.

[Guantes]

Soooooooo..........we're waiting.

[Brownie]

Type II Muscle Fibers--"twitch muscle fibers"

Type IIb muscle fibers have the fastest-contractile speed, the largest cross-sectional area, the lowest oxidative capacity, and the highest glycolytic capacity. They are ideally suited for short fast bursts of power. These muscle fibers are used in such activities as sprinting, powerlifting, and bodybuilding. Type IIa muscle fibers are intermediate and their properties lie between type I and type IIb.

The Principle of Use/Disuse

The Principle of Use/Disuse implies that you "use it or lose it." This simply means that your muscles hypertrophy with use and atrophy with disuse. It is important to find a balance between stress and rest. There must be periods of low intensity between periods of high intensity to allow for recovery.

The Principle of Specificity

The Specificity Principle simply states that training must go from highly general training to highly specific training. The principle of Specificity also implies that to become better at a particular exercise or skill, you must perform that exercise or skill. To be a good cyclist, you must cycle. The point to take away is that a runner should train by running and a swimmer should train by swimming.

The training must be specific not only to your sport, but to your individual abilities (tolerance to training stress, recoverability, outside obligations, etc). You must increase the training loads over time (allowing some workouts to be less intense than others) and you must train often enough not only to keep a detraining effect from happening, but to also force an adaptation.
__________________________________________________ __________

Thats the technical side of the answer, now here is my program for developing my fast "Type11b" muscles.

Particular attention to trigger finger speed by shooting out of control [ fast ] for 100 rds or so [ past my limits ], then backing off just a fraction to regain the control.

Repeated many times, eventually the speed increased [ the finger moving faster ] with good hits. Thats what worked for me. Shooting beyond any control, not looking for hits, but pure speed on the trigger [ like an exercise ], and then after the finger got used to that speed, backing off a fraction to regain control and there you have it.

Pretty simple, and I came to it by just mucking with speed and seeing results.

[Guantes]

Thank you, sir.

[JMusic]

OK, Brownie I'm impressed whatever you said:D One more thing here and I hope Alex will confirm. When you do a movement your brain sends a signal through several neural channels much like the wiring in a processor. As you continue to use this function, the brain tends to develope shortcuts. If speed is the desired result the more you do it and the faster you push yourself only reinforces this process. Your brain will actualy develope a shorter route to those muscles and enlarge the neuro transmitters to it. That is how people who have lost their arms can write with there feet. If done enough it will turn into an instinctive function triggered from the spine. Much like putting your hand on a hot stove. This is probably not the desired affect for faster trigger movement but surley is for drawing a handgun from a starteled responce.

I concur with the hand strengthining devises. My old bulleseye instructor had us use morticians clay to squeeze. As Brownie stated you changed hands. I do this then I will dry fire at least one hundred times a day. I have not been doing these exercises this winter and can tell it has slowed my speeds. One more thing the nuero shortcut never goes away but they do slow done or get rusty. The good thing is that it takes a fraction of the time it originaly took to get you back up to speed.
Jim

[Brownie]

JM,

If speed is the desired result the more you do it and the faster you push yourself only reinforces this process.

Thats it in a nutshell. The why is pretty technical.

[Roundeyesamurai]

OK, Brownie I'm impressed whatever you said:D One more thing here and I hope Alex will confirm. When you do a movement your brain sends a signal through several neural channels much like the wiring in a processor. As you continue to use this function, the brain tends to develope shortcuts. If speed is the desired result the more you do it and the faster you push yourself only reinforces this process. Your brain will actualy develope a shorter route to those muscles and enlarge the neuro transmitters to it. That is how people who have lost their arms can write with there feet. If done enough it will turn into an instinctive function triggered from the spine. Much like putting your hand on a hot stove. This is probably not the desired affect for faster trigger movement but surley is for drawing a handgun from a starteled responce.

Essentially yes.

It's actually a portion of the brain stem that handles processing of this type, not the spine, but otherwise correct.

Though this is often called "muscle memory", the correct term is "proprioception", and hardly involves the muscles themselves at all. Each muscle in your body contains small sense organs called proprioceptors, which transmit a sensory impulse to the brain which informs the brain of precisely how tensed or relaxed that particular muscle is. The cumulative effect of this, is that your brain knows in precisely what position your body lies, at every point in time.

This is, for instance, why you know your arm is moving or raised, without actually looking at your raised or moving arm.

Over time, the brain begins to recognize the same proprioceptive signals when a task is repeated frequently, and can signal the muscles to move in such a way as to cause their proprioceptors to continually send back the same proprioceptive information. Over time, one can develop a proprioceptive memory of an action which requires little or no conscious involvement in repeating.

[Ankeny]

Other than wow factor, are super fast splits really even necessary? The majority of higher level competition shooters will agree fast splits aren't as important as most folks think, but of course most guys like fast splits because they are entertaining and they look cool.

Here is the classical recipie for fast splits according to several of the IPSC hot rocks.

1. When you manipulate the trigger, use the same speed in, same speed out.
2. Maintain a neutral grip. That is, don't over totally over power the pistol with one hand at the expense of the other. I use a 60/40 grip with 60 per cent of the pressure coming from the support hand.
3. Isolate the action of the trigger finger. If you increase pressure with the fingers of your strong hand as you pull the trigger, the most common problem encountered will be a case of trigger freeze. Trigger freeze is the failure to release the trigger to the point of reset.
4. Bill Drills (six to an IPSC "A" box at 7 yards) are often used to work on trigger manipulation skills as are timing drills. Timing drills consist of shooting rounds into the berm without a well defined aiming point as you work on not blinking while you watch the sights lift and return. The tracking of the sights doesn't necessarily need to be straight up and down (mine track to one o'clock) but the tracking needs to be consistent and predictable. When you have the tracking of the gun figured out, shift to a target (threat) focus if that's your goal.
5. There will come a point where you will reach your limits of human function. It's important to continue to push yourself out of your comfort level in order to redefine your limits. But be aware that when shooting at the limits of human function, excessive tension and trying to go faster can prevent you from shooting at top speed. In other words, to really manipulate the trigger at high speeds, you will need to let yourself perform the task as opposed to trying to make yourself shoot faster. Yeah, I know that sounds like Zen babble.

Here's a film clip that was made for a purpose other than showing trigger manipulation skills, but the time on the trigger is pretty cool.
Hosing away. (http://www.tribcsp.com/~rankeny/hoser.wmv)

[Roundeyesamurai]

Good post, Ank, but there's one factor that I think needs to be introduced to put all of this in perspective:

Are we looking at what we "need", or what we "can have"?

Once "need" is addressed, then where do you go?

I think what's being examined here, is mostly in the "can have" category (which, to me, is alot more interesting than the "need" category).

[Ankeny]

I think what's being examined here, is mostly in the "can have" category (which, to me, is alot more interesting than the "need" category).

I agree. In competition, we need to be able to get acceptable hits on the target in a timely fashion without introducing a huge disaster factor. That results in splits at say 10 yards in the quarter second range on average for most decent shooters. That's all we really need. What we can have is splits in the low teens.

In general terms, shooters will have practice times that are much faster than match times. The goal is to close the gap between practice times and match times. Precious few will reach that goal (I certainly have not). For instance, I can shoot an El Presidente Drill with my race gun in under five seconds day in and day out. Having that ability is what allows me to shoot an El Pres in a match in five seconds and change and that's all I need, lol.

Of course, this is the competition forum, but I would like to know how this applies to preparing for a gunfight, or does it?

[Roundeyesamurai]

Of course, this is the competition forum, but I would like to know how this applies to preparing for a gunfight, or does it?

Simple: The faster you can put lead on target(s), the better off you are.

[sweatnbullets]

Of course, this is the competition forum, but I would like to know how this applies to preparing for a gunfight, or does it?

It is often said, "In a gunfight you will half as good as your best day on the range."

So in training we push our limitations.

I believe that the statement above was coined by the Modern Techniques crowd. I believe that they are half as good because they have not prepared themselves for the likelihood of being behind in the reactionary curve. On the other hand, us threat focus guys accept the situation that we will most likely find ourselves in and train within that context.

[Brownie]

Of course, this is the competition forum, but I would like to know how this applies to preparing for a gunfight, or does it?

In a gunfight, you are fighting with a gun [ the tool ]. If you improve your gun handling skills, you better your chance of surviving a gunfight using that tool.

Can anyone get enough skills [ trained by others or self taught ] to ensure successful outcomes in gunfights all the time? I don't think so as nothing is 100% in life, and other variables come into play besides just knowing how to run the tool. Those variables are never constant while we can make the use of the tool a constant.

So there are factors that need to be addressed in survivng gun play.

1. The tool which can be a constant [ controllable factors/inanimates].

How we get to where the tool can be considered a constant is often the debate we see on the net. I don't think it really matters how we achieve the constant, but it's more important [ to me anyway ] to understand what I need to do to make the tool a constant [ a goal that's achievable ].

2. The variables that can not be constants [ uncontrollable factors/inanimates ].

These could and likely will be the number of people who need to be dealt with, what their own tools are, distance equations, the time to make decisions which may affect the outcome, the environ we are in [ weather, low light, etc ] and others that can't be forseen in advance but will surely be there and need ot be addressed.

If we can't control the how and when of a self defense situation [ and sometimes it is understood we can through awareness ], we can control the use of our chosen tool to solve a potential problem.

I should work to be able to use the tool in the most efficient manner possible. How we effectively utilize our own efficiency with the tool will help deal with the time variables to some extent, it will help deal with distance varibales to some extent, it can deal with the environ to some extent [ night sights, lights on rails, etc ].

So what is the goal knowing all the above? To train to use the tool effectively and in the most expedient manner so that once it is determined the tool needs to be used, we are prepared to the best of our own ability.

The goal is to be able to use the tool subconscioulsy. How one gets there, and how long it takes are other variables that need to addressed and is another chapter altogether.

The answer for me is:

Any training that takes the tool user to the subconscious level of tool use is good training.

[Flexmoney]

I think Ron was trying to point out that you can waste a lot of training time trying to get cool/fast splits. ;)

Kinda surprising he should have to mention that, as many here have made plenty of post pointing out that there are more important things "on the street" to worry about.


In competition, splits get more attention than they need, by most.



Fast splits happen when you have a relaxed awareness. They don't come from trying. Also, you need good technique, that which will allow the returning of the gun to the target efficiently.

[sweatnbullets]

Hey Flex, ankenys video's along with what is seen on the hosercam site lets people now what is really possible. Something that may not be common knowledge to the self defense crowd. It sure was not to me.

It is like anything that I can see that has the need for improvement. Trigger speed may not be "all" important, but if the skill is lacking, some focus should be brought to it, to get that skill up to a reasonable level.

I have learned some very valuable skills that has me "returning of the gun to the target efficiently." It is time to match those skills with my ability to work the trigger more efficiently.

Good to see you here, Roger

[Flexmoney]

Roger, I think we are talk past each other a bit here.

I don't think I've ever seen anybody that can't pull the trigger fast enough. The usually problem is that they get too caught up in the "speed" aspect...and their basic techniques erode.

In my experience, sub-optimum splits aren't a result of a slow trigger finger.

[Ankeny]

The usually problem is that they get too caught up in the "speed" aspect...and their basic techniques erode.

I sure see that a lot with newer shooters, and I am guilty myself. In the quest for speed, fundamentals go down the tubes, generally starting with accuracy. The real danger (in competition shooting) is building a bunch of speed at say five yards, then you encounter a target array with a couple of close targets and a couple more targets at 7-8 yards. A hosing we will go, then we discover sub-optimal hits and maybe even misses, along with slower times. What's even worse is those lousy hits will for sure show up on the longer targets, but the close targets will also suffer more than you can imagine.

[Lurper]

Increasing the strength of your trigger finger will do little in helping increase your speed. I am assuming that you want to reduce the break between multiple shots. If so, here are some exercises that will work:
Find a stopwatch that is relatively large. Hold it the same way you hold your pistol. Hit the start/stop button twice, read the time. It's that simple. The key to being quick (not just on the trigger) is to be relaxed.
I have used this technique for more than 20 years. My average break (10 m or less) is .11, my fastest is .06 (we only count the shots that are a-zone hits in the speed building drills). I have been an IPSC competitor for more than 20 years and have shown thousands of people this technique. It sounds silly, but it works.



. . . Couple of additional thoughts: Many people think that a "double tap" is aiming at the target and pulling the trigger twice (as fast as you can), it is not. It is two seperate well aimed shots. If you haven't developed the ability to call your shots at that speed, then slow down. You can and should have a good sight picture before you press the trigger even at those speeds. The first step is to learn to relax, the second is learn to see your sight (focus on the front sight w/iron, the target with aimpoint), lastly build your speed at a pace where 80% of your hits are a-zone. If you are shooting 90%+ a-zones in practice, you are not pushing the edge. Push the edge in practice, shoot consistently in matches.

[Ankeny]

There is a bit of a terminology issue that is confusing me. A split is of course the time between shots on a single target. Many shooters consider a break the time between two targets, or the same as a transition.

I would dare say an average or par time break (split?) of .11 at 10 meters is extremely fast. To do so with A box hits is smoking right along. Do you mind me asking, what divison and class do you shoot? Better yet, would you mind sharing your USPSA number?

[Lurper]

Don't mind at all, my # is L388. I haven't competed in several years, but if you are familiar with the sport, Todd Jarret and I used to practice in my back yard and on any given day one of us would shoot about 95% of the other's score. I have won many matches and stages at the nationals, but never the big prize. Brian Enos and I used to practice a lot together after I moved to AZ, he once told me that I was faster than anyone. Coming from him, that is quite a compliment. All that aside, breaks like that(sub .15) are easy for anyone to achieve with proper training and practice. My breaks at 25 yards average .18. Another good drill we used was the "Bill Drill". Start with 1 target at 7m, hands at sides, draw fire 6 rounds. If you don't shoot all A's or it takes longer than 2 seconds, we didn't count it. I could consistently shoot in the 1.5 - 1.6 range. I saw Brian Enos shoot a 1.38 once.

As I mentioned, I stopped competing several years ago. I was the 106th member of USPSA to make Master class (if I remember correctly). I started shooting before the classification system existed. I stopped before they implemented Grand Master. I felt the whole classification system evolved into something that really didn't help the sport.


We used the terms split and break interchangeably, transition is the term when moving from one target to another.

[Brownie]

Lurper,

Welcome to our campfire at Threatfocused.

I'd be interested in the weapon platform you used and the trigger pull weight it was set for when you were running those times.

I also live in the free state of Az.

Regards

[Lurper]

Thanks Brownie,
My last race gun was a Para frame made by a guy in Fla. I don't remember what the trigger pull was, but it was light since it was my race gun. But even when I was shooting single stackers when Springfield sponsored me we were achieving the same speeds. I can do it (albeit slower) with my Colt officer's ACP. My race gun was .38 Super, my IPSC match ammo was 130gr fmj bullet from Midway, don't remember the exact charge but the powder was AA#9.

[Ankeny]

We used the terms split and break interchangeably, transition is the term when moving from one target to another.

That's where I got confused. Now a days a lot (like a whole lot) of the IPSC crowd use the term break and transition interchangeably. Do you frequent Brian's forums? There are a bunch of guys from the early days of IPSC posting over there and no doubt you could renew some old friendships.

FWIW, I am somewhat familiar with IPSC, but I have only been involved in the sport for 5-6 years. If you want to get a little insight into my background you can do a lookup on the USPSA website for TY43321. Also, a fellow with the username Flexmoney posts here from time to time. Flex is the USPSA Ohio Section Coordinator.

BTW, for those skeptics (like me) who perked right up when they saw .11 splits and one and a half second Bill Drills, Lurper is the real deal and what he says is true.

[Lurper]

An,
Sorry I didn't reply sooner, just got back from Mexico. I have lost touch with Brian and everyone else. I will go to his forums and see who I can find.
Thanks