Convulsive grip and trigger speed

[steve2267]

SnBs started a thread on trigger speed -- how to increase one's trigger speed. I have always been taught that tense muscles decrease speed; e.g. to punch quickly, the fist should be loosely held, only tensing into a fist at the last second before impact. Or that if one is tense, you won't run as fast when playing soccer.

FSA teaches a convulsive grip on the gun. Fairbairn apparently advocated (according to my instruction by Matt Temkin) a veritable death grip on the gun -- grip it so hard the gun starts to shake. Applegate apparently said to grip it so hard the gun starts to shake, then back off a little.

FSA also teaches to pull trigger as fast as possible so that a semi-auto sounds like a sub-machine gun. Applegate apparently admonishing students to "pull the trigger as fast as they f*****g can".

Question: Will not a convulsive grip then work against trigger speed because one's entire hand and wrist are really really tense?

[Matthew Temkin]

No.
Then again does it really matter?
The purpose of practicing with the convulsive grip is because that is how you will probably be doing so under the stress of life or death combat.
In other words, just grip the gun tight and pull the trigger as fast as possible---and don't sweat the small stuff.

[Roundeyesamurai]

That's the other part of the riddle from SnB's thread.

You see, the hand contains two gripping mechanisms- coarse grip and fine grip.

Fine grip is centered on the index finger- the ability to grip small objects, delicate objects, etc. It's the grip made between the index finger and thumb.

Coarse grip is the grip applied for hand strength. It is centered on the middle finger.

The musculature of the forearm, which is responsible for gripping, is aligned in such a manner as to allow for these differences in gripping.

Hence, the convulsive grip can be applied with the middle, ring, and little fingers, since the coarse grip musculature is aligned with them to allow this manner of gripping. With a coarse grip, the index finger is an accessory- it can be employed in support of the coarse grip, or it can function separately.

[agalb]

Guys,

A tense grip will decrease shooting speed. Myself and many other speed conscious shooters have known this and proved it using timers many many times.

The next time you get to the range, take a timer and shoot some strings with varying grip pressure on the pistol. You will quickly find that a relaxed grip will produce faster split times.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Guys,

A tense grip will decrease shooting speed. Myself and many other speed conscious shooters have known this and proved it using timers many many times.

The next time you get to the range, take a timer and shoot some strings with varying grip pressure on the pistol. You will quickly find that a relaxed grip will produce faster split times.

I'll leave this one for Brownie, Steve, or Roger to respond to, since they have video to prove otherwise.

[Brownie]

As the grip strength I use doesn't change from gun to gun, and I have never involved myself with various testing of grip strength, where speed might be tested between the them, I can't answer the question either. The grip strength I use I would call moderate. Not convulsive and not lax, just enough to control the recoil, and more applied as the shooting gets faster, but still not convulsive or hard any standard.

But I know someone here who can. He tested that very theory while were were on the "quest" last month. If I remember correctly [ and I'll let him confirm that memory himself ], the grip strength applied [ he tried FAS convulsive vs his normal grip ] didn't show a difference in speed.

Roger, what say you, I know you tested this out in the desert?

[sweatnbullets]

As the grip strength I use doesn't change from gun to gun, and I have never involved myself with various testing of grip strength, where speed might be tested between the them, I can't answer the question either. The grip strength I use I would call moderate. Not convulsive and not lax, just enough to control the recoil, and more applied as the shooting gets faster, but still not convulsive or hard any standard.

But I know someone here who can. He tested that very theory while were were on the "quest" last month. If I remember correctly [ and I'll let him confirm that memory himself ], the grip strength applied [ he tried FAS convulsive vs his normal grip ] didn't show a difference in speed.

Roger, what say you, I know you tested this out in the desert?

Like you Robin I basically use the same grip strength. Way too much if you ask my MT instructors, not nearly enough if you ask my FAS instructor.:D

I have found that my grip is quite sufficient for recoil control, trigger control, and accuracy control. It is about at the 75% level.

On testing the difference between my 75% grip and my convulsive grip. I found no difference at all in recoil control, trigger control, or accuracy. The decision I made after testing the two was to stay with what I have been doing.

[agalb]

If you are happy with your current split times, then I wouldn't worry about it. Since a firm grip is a part of hip shooting, you may never reach a point where you can benefit from the speed that is possible with a relaxed grip. I imagine that using a relaxed, speed oriented grip would break down the index used during hip shooting, which would be counter productive.

If you spend any range time using your sights, try some timed strings using your hip shooting grip pressure, and then some using a more relaxed grip pressure. It doesn't just help with speed, it helps consistency as well.

If you get that far, you may be interested in some sight tracking drills. Sight tracking along with a relaxed grip will produce the fastest possible hits out to 50 yards and farther.

[Roundeyesamurai]

If you are happy with your current split times, then I wouldn't worry about it. Since a firm grip is a part of hip shooting, you may never reach a point where you can benefit from the speed that is possible with a relaxed grip.

You're presuming that it is a fact that one is faster on the trigger when not employing the convulsive grip. It's not a fact, it's your opinion.

I imagine that using a relaxed, speed oriented grip would break down the index used during hip shooting, which would be counter productive.

There you go again- the presumption that a "speed-oriented grip" must be "relaxed".

Have you ever been formally trained in the employment of convulsive grip?

If you spend any range time using your sights, try some timed strings using your hip shooting grip pressure, and then some using a more relaxed grip pressure. It doesn't just help with speed, it helps consistency as well.

Please tell us the qualifications you have on which you base your assertions that:

a) We haven't done precisely that, thousands of times;
b) That your advice could improve our performance.

Incidentally, as has been told you scores of times, we do indeed "spend some range time using our sights". The fact that you present insinuations that we don't, both on this site (including a thread you started to that effect) and on others, tells me that you haven't been paying attention to what has been said to you, either on that matter or on others.

If you get that far, you may be interested in some sight tracking drills. Sight tracking along with a relaxed grip will produce the fastest possible hits out to 50 yards and farther.

"If we get that far"...? For the umpteenth time, cite the qualifications and credentials you hold, which entitle you to speak to this group in such a condescending fashion.

And again, your description of "the fastest way" to do something your opinion.

[Matthew Temkin]

If you are happy with your current split times, then I wouldn't worry about it. Since a firm grip is a part of hip shooting, you may never reach a point where you can benefit from the speed that is possible with a relaxed grip. I imagine that using a relaxed, speed oriented grip would break down the index used during hip shooting, which would be counter productive.

If you spend any range time using your sights, try some timed strings using your hip shooting grip pressure, and then some using a more relaxed grip pressure. It doesn't just help with speed, it helps consistency as well.

If you get that far, you may be interested in some sight tracking drills. Sight tracking along with a relaxed grip will produce the fastest possible hits out to 50 yards and farther.
Tell you what..I will open up on you with my shotgun at 15 feet.
You will then draw and fire at me with your handgun.
Then we will measure both your grip on your pistol and your pucker factor.
Surely the competition shooters have such a device, yes?
Pardon my sarcasm, but if you spent any time speaking to combat veterans perhaps you will understand the reasons behind teaching the convulsive grip.

[agalb]

I am simply suggesting methods that might help those using counter productive techniques reach the speeds that they are capable of.

Don't believe me, go to the range and test it for yourself.

If you aren't interested in shooting as quickly and accurately as possible, just ignore my comments and move on.

There's no need to get your blood pressure up.

[Roundeyesamurai]

I am simply suggesting methods that might help those using counter productive techniques reach the speeds that they are capable of.

Don't believe me, go to the range and test it for yourself.

If you aren't interested in shooting as quickly and accurately as possible, just ignore my comments and move on.

There's no need to get your blood pressure up.

So, instead of answering the questions repeatedly posed to you, you continue with condescension, which (for lack of knowing your "famed" credentials) are not qualified to utter.

Agalb: What qualifies you to speak in a definitive manner on the subject, and in the particularly condescending manner in which you're speaking?

You must have some sort of qualification which exceeds all of ours, given that you're making statements as though they are incontrovertible fact, rather than opinion.

[Brownie]

Ease up gentlemen.

I didn't see anything in posts that looked anything more than suggestions. We can take them for what they are depending on our individual perspectives.

Thanks

[Matthew Temkin]

I am simply suggesting methods that might help those using counter productive techniques reach the speeds that they are capable of.

Don't believe me, go to the range and test it for yourself.

If you aren't interested in shooting as quickly and accurately as possible, just ignore my comments and move on.

There's no need to get your blood pressure up.
Have you seen how fast any of us can shoot?
Or how accurate?
Against my better judgement I put myself under a timer and posted the results.
As did SWB and Brownie.
So beforwe this goes any further why not duplicate our tests and post your timer results, so we have something to compare each other to?
Ye Gads!!!!
Now I am asking for timers as proof!!!
I can only imanage Applegate rolling over in his grave...

[Roundeyesamurai]

Have you seen how fast any of us can shoot?
Or how accurate?

Nope, he "just knows better" for some reason which he won't tell any of us about.

;)

Against my better judgement I put myself under a timer and posted the results.
As did SWB and Brownie.
So beforwe this goes any further why not duplicate our tests and post your timer results, so we have something to compare each other to?

Sounds fantastic, I might just have to do that!

(Let's see if Agalb The Ineffable will do the same :rolleyes:)

[Brownie]

I find my grip somewhat more convulsive shooting one handed for obvious reasons.

It's one handed and any recoil impulse has to be dealt with with one hand carrying the load over a two hand hold.

There will be times one handed has to be used in a SD situation and my grip is harder than my two handed hold accordingly for the reasons stated above. It more instinctive than trained for me. But it is there.

Agalb is entitled to his opinion as we all are here. Lets keep the post moving forward and decide for ourselves that which we know to be true and that which bears further observations where our own grips are concerned.

Grip strength is different for all of us. I have a medium to small hand and my strength is different from someone who has hamhock hands and gorilla strength. The difference in opinions could certainly be based on individual configurations and strengths and time on the guns [ experience ].

I'd like to hear from Ankeny relative his thoughts on this issue as well if he sees this.

Thanks

[Dino]

Hold on, Matt did you just suggest we use a timer and compare results:eek: Next thing you know you will show up wearing a 5.11 tuxedo. What is this world coming to.

Take care.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Hold on, Matt did you just suggest we use a timer and compare results:eek: Next thing you know you will show up wearing a 5.11 tuxedo. What is this world coming to.

I just got a fantastic idea for a Photoshop job... :D

Hi Dino, nice to see you here.

[sweatnbullets]

I find my grip somewhat more convulsive shooting one handed for obvious reasons.

It's one handed and any recoil impulse has to be dealt with with one hand carrying the load over a two hand hold.

There will be times one handed has to be used in a SD situation and my grip is harder than my two handed hold accordingly for the reasons stated above. It more instinctive than trained for me. But it is there.

Good point! As lowdrag often says let's look at this in it's context.

It is a well know fact that Modern Techniques and the Competition circle are taught that a tight grip will slow down your trigger speed and effect your trigger control. I was taught this and obviously Steve, ankeny, agalb were taught the same. Now whether this is fact or not, I do not know. I just took my instructors word for it. I am definitely going to have to buy me a timer so I can check these things for myself.

Now we all know that the focus and goals of MT and Comp. guys are very different from the "combat" crowd. They are all about speed and accuracy, with very little concern on how their body may react in combat. The combat guys are also very much into speed an accuracy but with a special emphasis on how their body reacts under the stress of a life threatening encounter.

Robin brings up a very good point. The convulsive grip works great for one handed shooting to manage recoil control. Making the HG sound like a machine gun is not possible, one handed, with any accuracy, if you do not manage the recoil. Let's say for the sake of argument that it is faster to pull the trigger with a relaxed hand. How are you possibly going to keep a fist size group at the half hip with a relaxed grip. So in comes the convulsive grip. It may actually be a bit slower but I can pull the trigger as fast as I can and keep the shots tight.

RES brought up another good point about what we need or what we want. I may need the ability to get hits with a convulsive grip in combat. But for the range, as an instructor, what I want is fast an accurate shooting, including being fast on the trigger. I want this so that I can have guys like ankeny come to take a course with me and have him respect me enough so I can teach him some of the things that I know, that he may not.:)

[Guantes]

If we ever all get a chance to get together I see a fun day. A timer, a few bucks in the pot from everybody and away we go....:D

[Matthew Temkin]

Hold on, Matt did you just suggest we use a timer and compare results:eek: Next thing you know you will show up wearing a 5.11 tuxedo. What is this world coming to.

Take care.
Hi Dino, and welcome aboard.
See what your damed timer has reduced me to?
Soon I will be challenging others to IDPA matches and walking around with my hands in the air, waiting for the buzzer of life to ring....

[Dino]

Thanks for the welcome. Actually the timer is quite fun and can be used in testing your technique. I'm going to shoot the 3 targets at 4 yds. drill today and see how it goes.

[Matthew Temkin]

I went to Dino's range on January 22 and had him place me under the timer.
Since we are training for self defense we decided to base the drills on our reality as opposed to longer range competition type shooting.
I used my S&W Model 640, starting with it in my front pocket and my hand on the gun.
Distance was about 6 feet
On the avj the first shot was in .5 seconds, with all 5 shots---center mass in somewhere between fist and hand sized groups---in 1.38 seconds.
Since this was my first time using a buzzer Dino decided to remove the reaction factor and just measure how fast I could shoot.
This resulted in four shots in .94 seconds.
Splits avj. somewhere between .22 and .23.

Then we moved back to 10 feet and I shot 6 shots from my friend's 4 inch Model 10, starting at low ready.
Removing the reaction time I fired 5 shots in .94 seconds, with hand size groups.

We then did a multible target drill, starting with me about 6 feet from two targets, with gun holstered.
No concealment, and my hand on the grip at 6 feet.
I was able to draw and place one shot center mass on each target in .83 seconds---but I do believe that once I get the hand of responding to the buzzer that I could shave this down.
My friends best time on this was .77 of a second.

Conclusions?
I really enjoyed the timer and will buy my own. ( Yes, I am having crow for breakfast)
I am sold on revolvers, especially a 640 in the front pocket. (My friend did the same drill with his S&W Model 36 and found his hammer snagging on clothing at least once, so he is now looking for a 640)
Very fast, easy to conceal and your hand can be on the gun without raising an alarm.
Appendix carry is almost as good and for a larger pistol I would carry that way.
As to the value of hip shooting....from the pocket all of my shots were fired somewhere between half and 3/4 hip, with zero sight/weapon index and with very good accuracy.
In other drills we had no problem making rapid fire chest and head shots from the hip, with no need to bring the pistol higher than belly button level.
Thank you Dino and the LT. for another great day of shooting. training and brainstorming.

[Ankeny]

Robin:

I have been following the trigger speed thread in the competition forum, but I just got around to reading this thread.

There might be some confusion on terminology. In competition when S isn't HTF, we go for a neutral grip. A neutral grip simply means the action of the trigger finger is isolated from the rest of the hand, the side to side pressure (if you use that method) is the same with both hands, and the gripping power between the two hands isn't anymore lop sided than 60/40 or there abouts. The amount of grip pressure varies a lot from individual to individual. When I shoot at warp drive, I grip the pistol with about the same grip pressure I would use on a 20 ounce framing hammer. I use a bit less grip pressure when shooting for more accuracy.

FWIW, guys like Jerry Miculek, Jerry Barnhart, and Rob Leatham have a very strong, robust grip. In fact, Jerry's grip would probably crush one of the old fashioned steel beer cans, and he set the record for double action revolver splits. Don't know if that answers your question or not.

[Brownie]

Thanks Ron,

That explains a lot, for me. The neutral grip is what I use most of the time and side to side is equal pressure as well. [ from your description and the isolated trigger finger ] .

When I shoot at warp drive, I grip the pistol with about the same grip pressure I would use on a 20 ounce framing hammer. I use a bit less grip pressure when shooting for more accuracy.

I seem to do the same thing most of the time. My grip with speed, I would describe as "enough to keep the gun from moving under recoil" and no more. For accuracy I tend to also lighten the grip.

FWIW, guys like Jerry Miculek, Jerry Barnhart, and Rob Leatham have a very strong, robust grip. In fact, Jerry's grip would probably crush one of the old fashioned steel beer cans, and he set the record for double action revolver splits.

This answers a lot of questions in this thread for not only myself but many of the members. I don't think anyone would say those guys can't shoot with speed and accuracy.

Using a strong, robust grip would be similiar to the convulsive grip IMO. It would appear a robust convulsive grip can be used to shoot at warp drive, and explains how FAS techniques can make the gun sound like a machinegun.

I appreciate your response as I'm sure others do here.

Stay sharp

[agalb]

Just got back in town.


I appreciate the attitudes of Brownie and SNB, as well as MT's timer "epiphany". As has been discussed, a convulsive grip can be used to good effect, (while shooting one handed is a good example- from the hip OR extension) but in general, faster times are possible with a more relaxed grip.

Re: Barnhart- I have also heard of his legendary hand strength, but I wonder if his grip, (while convulsive by mortal standards) isn't relaxed from what he is capable of while shooting extremely quickly?

Re: Timed drills- I would be happy to post times. Any specific drills I should shoot?

Added:

In case you missed this on GT:

After some of the recent discussion regarding hip shooting versus extension shooting, I thought I would do an informal test to see if I could come to any conclusions regarding the drawbacks or advantages of either technique. Let me first describe the mechanics of how I was shooting so you understand what I am referring to as “hip shooting” and “extension shooting”:

Hip shooting- The pistol was drawn from the holster, and my elbow/upper forearm area was thrust downward into contact with my side, just above the beltline. The pistol was fired as soon as “contact” was made with my side. This technique was performed “strong hand only”, and was essentially the technique I was taught at Blackwater. (Tac Pistol 2)

Extension shooting- The pistol was drawn from the holster and presented towards the target, with the support hand meeting the strong hand near chest level, and the pistol extended out near eye level. The pistol was fired after the hands met, usually just before full extension of the arms.

Equipment: I used a Glock 19 for the tests, with a Glock 17 (17 rd) magazine. The pistol was drawn from a Blade Tech Kydex belt holster. No concealment garment was used, and starting position was standing, hands “naturally at sides”. Timer was a Pact MK IV, which measures the time between a start signal (beep) and each shot it detects, keeping a running “tally” of all shots fired until it is reset for another “string”. Targets were 8.5x11” sheets of white paper.

Test 1- Three yards/ten feet: Draw and fire one shot on target using extension technique. I repeated this test five times with the following results:

Shot #1 .97 sec, Hit
Shot #2 1.03 sec, Hit
Shot #3 .99 sec, Hit
Shot #4 .93 sec, Miss
Shot #5 .96 sec, Hit

Observations- No surprises here. My focus was 100% on the target for this string.

Test 2- Three yards/ten feet: Draw and fire one shot on target using hip shooting technique. I repeated this test five times with the following results:

Shot #1 .76 sec, Miss
Shot #2 .85 sec, Miss
Shot #3 .77 sec, Miss
Shot #4 .86 sec, Miss
Shot #5 .79 sec, Miss

Observations- I was ten feet away and I didn’t hit the target. I did miss faster, however!

Test 3- Five yards/seventeen feet: Draw and fire one shot on target using extension technique. I repeated this test five times with the following results:

Shot #1 1.13 sec, Hit
Shot #2 1.24 sec, Hit
Shot #3 1.11 sec, Hit
Shot #4 .98 sec, Hit
Shot #5 .98 sec, Miss

Observations- Again, no surprises here. I attribute the slower times to a fuller extension, and trying to refine my “point”. On this string I was looking “through” the gun, still focused on the target for the most part.

Test 4- Five yards/seventeen feet: Draw and fire one shot on target using hip shooting technique. I repeated this test five times with the following results:

Shot #1 .96 sec, Miss
Shot #2 .99 sec, Miss
Shot #3 1.03 sec, Miss
Shot #4 .86 sec, Miss
Shot #5 .94 sec, Hit

Observations- The times on this string surprised me, as they were slower than the Test 2 times. I expected them to be the same, since I was doing the same thing, but maybe I was trying to “point” better here as well. I did score one hit, so maybe that worked.

Test 5- Five yards/seventeen feet: Draw and fire 17 shots on target using hip shooting technique. This test resulted in 9 hits. The first shot was fired in .91 second, and the entire string took 4.92 seconds.

Observations- Since my single shots from the hip were mostly misses, I thought I would shoot a full magazine and “steer” the rounds onto the target. This kind of worked.

Test 6- Five yards/seventeen feet: Draw and fire 17 shots on target using extension technique. This test resulted in 16 hits. The first shot was fired in 1.18 seconds, and the entire string took 4.32 seconds. During this string my focus was on the target, and I was looking “through” the sights.

Observations- Much better hits, slightly faster overall time.

[sweatnbullets]

I know what the convulsive grip did for me and my training partner in terms of trigger speed and tightening of the group when we were in Tucson.

It was good to see the effects of the convulsive grip from an instructors stand point. RAM was doing very well with EU/ED and was making good solid hits out to five yards. He thought that was pretty cool.:rolleyes:

Then I had him use the convulsive grip and told him to make his HG sound like a machine gun. Right away his trigger speed was far beyond anything else he had done to that point and his group size was cut in half.

Now that got his attention!:eek: :D

[Matthew Temkin]

I know what the convulsive grip did for me and my training partner in terms of trigger speed and tightening of the group when we were in Tucson.

It was good to see the effects of the convulsive grip from an instructors stand point. RAM was doing very well with EU/ED and was making good solid hits out to five yards. He thought that was pretty cool.:rolleyes:

Then I had him use the convulsive grip and told him to make his HG sound like a machine gun. Right away his trigger speed was far beyond anything else he had done to that point and his group size was cut in half.

Now that got his attention!:eek: :D
How about that.
I guess things always are not always as they seem.