double shots for multiple aggressors

[shaman]

Back when I shot in the idpa, the standard for handling multiple targets was to put 2 shots in each and then move on to the next where you did the same until there were no more "bad guys".

When I questioned this approach, I was told that this is the best way to handle multiple attackers.
I wonder about this since I carry a 357 wheelgun and would be dry after 6 shots.

Maybe it's a dyanmic thing that depends on numbers, but it makes sense to me to put a well placed shot in each without having to double up.

Am I wrong here? Are double taps still the standard with multiples?

[Brownie]

Are double taps still the standard with multiples?

shaman;

I'm not sure what the "standard" is, nor do I care all that much what others think the "standard" should be for multiples.

My own theories on multiples runs to the old saying of "boarding house rules" for multiples. Simply put, everyone gets one helping to start with, then return to those who need second servings as necessary.

Thats the way I've always worked multiple scenarios, and I'm not changing that anytime soon. One or two of the multiples may not need second helpings, why waste time putting two into them while the potential for incoming from others is still present?

Just my opinion, everyone may have differences in their own plans to deal with multiples. No right or wrong, just what works for you in your own particular set of circumstances.

[shaman]

Hey Brownie,
Thanks for your quick reply.

Boarding house rules seem sensible to me as well. I lost a lot of points in the gun games of idpa doing things that way, but felt that it was worthwhile.

I'm contemplating this situation as something that might actually come up since I've moved to a much larger city with all the big city problems.
I'm even contemplating moving to a large capacity brass puker as a primary weapon since the sd scenario has either changed or become more clear as having always been this way.

[Dave James]

Its funny double taps didn't appear really until the popular semi took over in the PD circles.

I'm with brownie on this as where several of my mentors, "If the first one doesn't stop them,help them along with another" Bryce

[Guantes]

A good question, for which I have an unscientific, personally biased answer.

With a wheelgun (.357 is all I carry) I would go with the one serving each to start with for a couple reasons. One, I have more confidence in in a 357 than a 9mm, justified or not, that's how I feel. Second, have to reload sooner, even with speedies a little under 3 sec is about as good as I can do.

With a flat gun ( I shoot 92's), I lean more toward "doubles", depending on a thing or two. If there is no more than two BG's and I am even or ahead, I consider the .20-.25 for a double well spent, in addition to not having not having a short reload cycle. More than two, or coming from behind, I would probably go with singles.

[JMusic]

I'd probably double up unless I knew I'd run short. For example if carrying my Kahr or P7 I'd double upon on 2 or less. More than that I'd single and come back for the knoggin. I have to admit though I've never felt short thank god.

Jim

[DocH]

I carry a nine most of the time.MOST of the time.However,like G ,I just feel personally more confident with my short maggie or a .45. I can't elaborate on why I feel this way,because I know the 9mm's I use perform well. Probably a holdover from the older days.
You don't know how you look 'til you get your picture took, but regardless of what I'm packing I'd probably go for two each with one or two,and one each for more than that,and that's the way I train or practice.
It's all situationally dependent,of course.

[David Williams]

Like most of the members who have already posted, whether I pull the trigger once or four times is determined more by my magazine capacity than by how many targets there are. If a wheelgun is what I have, then conservation is high on my priority list - I don't want to come up too much target at the end of the cylinder!

With that said, I live by the philosophy that anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice...or three times...or four.

I carry a 1911 and I'm good for 8 rounds on the first mag, 7 for each consecutive - of which I always have at least one. Personally, I can't imagine the self-defense situation that would require more than 15 rounds from me. As always, YMMV.

In the more advanced CAR courses we teach people that every time they pull the trigger, they should do so in a multiple of their magazine capacity. My XD-40 carries 12 rounds, so every time I engage out come 4 rounds.
This practice is based on two principles; the first being that many people do not even feel the first hit, so subsequent shots are often necessary to get a reaction. The second is that it's just as easy to pull the trigger 3 times as it is once, and doesn't take that much longer.

As always, situation dictates, but I'm with Brownie when it comes to "standards". Standards work great when you're trying to keep score - whether or not they stand up to the real-world fight is something every one of us has to test for ourselves.

[7677]

Back when I shot in the idpa, the standard for handling multiple targets was to put 2 shots in each and then move on to the next where you did the same until there were no more "bad guys".

When I questioned this approach, I was told that this is the best way to handle multiple attackers.
I wonder about this since I carry a 357 wheelgun and would be dry after 6 shots.

Maybe it's a dynamic thing that depends on numbers, but it makes sense to me to put a well placed shot in each without having to double up.

Am I wrong here? Are double taps still the standard with multiples?

The problem with these types of questions is there is no correct answer. It depends on the gun, the position, and number of opponents and your cadence of shots...simply how fast can you pull the trigger.

The reason for every target getting firsts before getting seconds was due to lower capacity guns and to keep the shooter from becoming to target fixated. From personal experience if you make the first move and go on the attack you can get two to three rounds on your first target but after that things gets quick in a hurry. The way I look at it...make an example out of the first guy and then go on the attack and use every trick you have up your sleeve against the rest and maybe you'll make it home at the end of the night.

On paper with my G19, my cadence of shots are fast to the point where my gun sounds like a machine gun and I practice to double tap each one before moving to the next. But of course, reality always rearing its head into the best laid out plans and Murphy's law is the ruler of the land. I have found that when things happen fast and the playing field evolves rapidly all of the touchy feel good BS that is taught in classes and in competition goes out the window and you take the shot that is offered to you and move on the the next. In these situation you continue to drive on until they are all dead or you make to cover and then continue to fight or get out of dodge. Whatever you do don't stop moving out in the open not even to reload.

[Brownie]

On paper with my G19, my cadence of shots are fast to the point where my gun sounds like a machine gun

No question there 7677, I've seen you shoot like that on several ocassions. Isn't there a photo of something like 8 shells in the air while you are firing that g19 of yours?

[Dave James]

Okay just to stir the pot so to speak,,

OLD GUYS :rolleyes: Would you still say double down or go single if you carried a 1911 instead of the super duper double column wonder??

Me myself and I stand by the post of one each then back fr second helpings if needed

[7677]

Okay just to stir the pot so to speak,,

OLD GUYS :rolleyes: Would you still say double down or go single if you carried a 1911 instead of the super duper double column wonder??

Me myself and I stand by the post of one each then back fr second helpings if needed

I'd just do it Old School Revolver Style...shoot two or three into the first guy and one for everyone else and New York reload with the air weight in my support side pant pocket if any more then six are needed.

I never had much fondness for the 1911 as a carry gun.

[Guantes]

Hey DJ, these questions are getting complicated.

When I was working my primary was a wheel gun and my New York reload was a 1911, so where does that leave me?

[Brownie]

Would you still say double down or go single if you carried a 1911 instead of the super duper double column wonder?

Given the same set of circumstances with both weapon platforms, it would not matter to me.

[DocH]

To address DJ's question....well,since I'm not an old guy,I won't bother.:D :D

[JMusic]

Multiple aggressors and carrying a New York reload I'd use both working left in and right in. One shot each.:D

James Music

[Brownie]

carrying a New York reload I'd use both working left in and right in. One shot each

That sounds like a plan Mr. Music?:D

[JMusic]

I can't believe you guys are letting me get away with my last statement.:p To answer DJ's question I would feel better with my 45 but I don't know that it would change my tactics. If I felt the need for speed so to speak I might go one, but I'd have to be moving the pistol pretty fast not to take two.

Jim

[DocH]

I can't believe you guys are letting me get away with my last statement.:p To answer DJ's question I would feel better with my 45but I don't know that it would change my tactics. If I felt the need for speed so to speak I might go one, but I'd have to be moving the pistol pretty fast not to take two.

Jim That's my man!Mr. Music.:)

[JMusic]

You know Doc I forgot about you practicing the two gun method. What is really being talked about here is how fast can you shoot and how much confidence you have in your gun and yourself. To top it off, you are doing a static technique with your life depending on it. No short order IMHO. I was trying to fire up DJ, reckoning if anyone had tried putting two guns into play he may have.

I thought the two gun trick like aireals a parlor trick for the most part. After watching a few classes of FOF and after setting up multiple target scenereos I began to wonder if two weapons wouldn't give you an edge. I can guarantee I can run 6 targets faster with two pistols than I can one. Not by much but maybe enough. You would just need the balls to try it.:D Whats your thoughts Doc?

Jim

[Brownie]

My simultaneous two gun shooting stems from the enhanced peripheral vision skills we demo and get students in the classes to work with in short order. Jims been working with this for some time, as well, we knew Doc was out there playing with it after reading the enhanced peripheral vision thread last year.

I'm as confident in the two gun shooting simultaneously as I am one gun under stress at this point, but then I've been working with that skill set for some 15+ years now.

I have two more airsofts coming in before the next Flagstaff class in three weeks, and I've already been planning to put two assailants up against both of my airsofts in this class along with the classic two on one FoF with each having one gun to use.

We'll see how fast I can get on two people here in a few weeks who are living, breathing live threats.;) I'm taking bets I can whack both at the same time as long as the distance doesn't get past 15 feet.

Anyone want to guess how long it will take some other "well known" instructors to pick up on that which we are talking about here and start posting themselves?:rolleyes:

[DocH]

Jim,I did the two gun thing years ago with revolvers just experimenting on my own.I got away from it but decided to give it a shot again after I had a conversation about it with Brownie.
I started back with two wheelies and found it didn't take long to get back in the groove,as I was acclimated to shooting weak handed a lot anyway so it didn't feel unnatural to me..
This may sound weird but when I did it a couple of times with two Glocks my hits weren't as good. I was using two G26's.
Most targets I shot were four at a time. With two wheelguns it is definetely workable for me,and ideally I would like the revos to be identical but I don't have any matching pairs. I was using my 2 1/2 in Mod.19 and the little Mod 60-9 that the wife absconded with on each occasion that I did it.
I shoot fairly well but I don't know if I'd trust myself to be that good with two autos just yet.I probably could use a lot of practice and some one on one insruction. Revolvers? No problem. Just feels more natural to me.
Glad this came up,I need to start back doing it some more.I was starting to integrate some pretty good movement with the technique when I kind of stopped doing it,something I didn't do in the old days.
Besides,this two gun play is just plain fun as H&%^!:D

[DocH]

Brownie,I'm often a bettin' man,but not in this case! I have no doubt you can whack 'em both just a bit fast.
Now if anyone wants to bet on the two bad guys,I'm open for some cash.:)
I was looking at some airsofts from the Atlanta outfit the other day.What king are you getting?

As to the other question? It'll be interesting to wait and see.

[JMusic]

Well Doc I can do it but you know how that is under stress. It would be a preemptive move for me thus not as much stress as being surprised. I'll try it with airsofts too but I do believe I'm quicker with both pistols. Problem I would have is I have been in this scenereo and I usually try to stack the group giving me more time. Many BG's recognize what is happening and decide to give. So far I've been lucky.

Jim

[DocH]

Understood.Stacking 'em is a sound tactic. Your right about the stress part too. I used to get the heart rate up by doing laps around the range before shooting. May try that again. Not the same as the real stressors ,of course,but the only way I know to get kind of close to it.

[Brownie]

Revolvers? No problem. Just feels more natural to me.

I developed my two gun shooting and the enhanced peripheral vision with two snubs Doc, I think they are probably optimum for me in the venue as thats what I used to "get there" years ago. I've shot two of the same revos, two of the same autos, and mixed and matched em up as well with good results.

Often it's a student who hands me his own gun to demo this, and that can lead to the second gun being about anything you can imagine.

[DocH]

Well,Brownie,at this point I'll have to say thanks,I owe you,brother.
Your little "tip" did improve things for me and tightened my shots dramatically. As I said I need to get back to this.We've been having so much fun with the 1911's lately that I've slipped in some other areas.:o

Theres an idea! The old Colt in one hand and the S&W in the other.
By the way,the S&W is at almost 2500 rounds now,No problems.The external extractor seems to be working great.

You know when you spend 40 years with a sidearm it just becomes part of you,so to speak. If I can find a really good 19 or 66 that I can match up with my old friend,I'll be set on the revolver thing. Gonna keep working with the autos,too.

[Brownie]

No thanks necessary Doc, I enjoy knowing people can duplicate the skills no matter what that may be.

[DocH]

We may have tetered on the brink of getting a little off topic in some of the posts here,me especially,but thanks to shaman for starting this thread.
Some good replies and some good logic has been posted.

The quest for knowledge is a never ending search. If it's shooting,playing guitars,or whatever endeavor it may be,you're never too old to learn something new.Never,ever,ever. As far as guitars,my wife tells me" If you don't quit pickin' at that thing it'll never get well!"

For anyone just reading this thread or browsing this forum,it's one of the best places I know(the very best,for me) to gain more knowledge about my all time consuming passion. I started shooting regularly when I was 19.I am now 62 and still learning things. I'm learning some stuff from people older than me and people younger than me. The day you close your mind to any new idea or concept is the day your wad is shot.Try it first before you condemn it.You may just be pleasantly surprised.
I had a long police career and experienced a lot of things,but in the end I am just a little man who knows nothing. I know me,and I can tell you straight up that the day before I croak,I'll still be starving to know more.

[Brownie]

I also think this thread has some good information from some experienced street savvy people who've got some valid opinions based on their background/training/experiences Doc.

Ya, the OP's question has taken some twists and turns here some, but sharing of thought processes will always have the tendency to do so when people the likes of who have posted in this thread share their opinions and knowledge.

It's just expanding on a theme. Like you, I thank Shaman for asking the question of the members.

[Brownie]

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121

referring to the thread above, and to get back on topic some for shaman, look at the video of my shooting the 2-2-2 drill. At splits around .24/25 seconds between shots average, if I had shot one per, three BG's shot would not have taken me 2.24 seconds.

I would have saved on three guys an average of .50 seconds to get to the third guy. Thats a lot of time when you are taking incoming. I'll stick with "boarding house rules" in these scenarios as I've stated. Anyone still standing gets seconds as necessary.

That may be all three or none, but all of them will be operating at a disadvantage, if at all, after the first one connects thereby likely giving me more chance of not taking one before they all have been damaged.

YMMV:D

[Brownie]

Doc, I was rereading this thread this morning and saw you had asked about what airsofts I'm buying and using in the classes. I somehow did not see that question sir.

The guns, the gas and pellets are coming from http://www.precisionairsoft.com/ in Washington state. I've bought the two G17's, and I'm pulling the trigger on two glock 18's when they restock just before the next Flagstaff, Az class in a few weeks.

I'll have 4 of them for that class with plenty of rds and green gas to run them. The two G17's run like a champ. They've been dropped, slammed [ knocked from the hands ] to the ground and you just brush the dirt off and get to training with no problems from them at all.

One of the guns came with a bad mag that wouldn't hold a charge, it was sent back and a new one sent out asap with great customer service. If you go through the link, ask to talk to Chris, he's knowledgeable and takes care to ensure the customer gets what they want is satisfied with the products they sell.

Their phone number is Tel: 509-535-0655 Fax: 509-535-2454

[DocH]

Thanks for the info,Brownie.I had forgotten that I'd asked.:o
I'm considering getting the G19 airsoft,maybe two,since the old G19's still remain as my SHTF guns. I'll check with these folks.

[JMusic]

These are pretty good guns but they sell some real accurate ones. The 17 and 18 I have is accurate enough to pick off bugs on the garage. The 18 is a blast. The 17 is probably more durable.

Jim

[shaman]

Thanks for the video Brownie.
It seems like a much better idea to save an extra bit of time for the other two + bad guys by using boarding house rules.

by extrapolating the time gained to a larger number of bg's than 3, say 8 or 9, you begin to see a real benefit as the time saved will stack and let you handle more in much less time.

I appreciate that you guys are concerned about a similar topic that I'm concerned about. I read a lot here and don't post much since you guys are so much farther ahead of me in this realm of firearms useage. I appreciate your input, thread drift, anecdotes, and anything else you want to add.

Living in a metro area again, I find that I'm faced with a lot of issues concerning personal safety that never came up when I lived in the sticks.
So, thanks to all of you.
Back to lurking. :-)