EU/ED is it really the fastest draw?

[JMusic]

Now let me say this. I am far from being an expert in EU/ED. When I was shown this technique a few years ago I was flabergasted at the speed and accuracy and have been a convert ever since.

As some know here I am part of a group that sponcers a Quick Kill pistol course here in Knoxville. The course includes more than QK, EU/ED (elbow up elbow down) is included along with other point shooting techniques. Recently I have observed another technique that is very simular and maybe slightly quicker. I have talked to several people and they have also observed this method being used during the EU/ED exercise. The method is this...

The shooter (all old guys):p :D draw and as the gun clears the holster the wrist is slammed into the shooters side resulting in the gun being fired just overtop of the holster. When I first observed this my first impulse was to correct the shooter to the right technique, but as I watched I became intreaged with the speed and economy of motion. Thus I said nothing. I've tried this method and it is uncomfortable for me but the shooters who were using this method looked very comfortable.

Has anyone seen or heard of this method? If so where did it come from?

Jim

[Brownie]

In the last two classes [ Flagstaff and the Florida PD ], students have been shown and allowed to "play" with a technique similiar to what you have described. I've only incorporated it in the last two classes, it may become a part of a regular class in the future, but I have my doubts, here's why.

IMO,

1. It requires some time on EU/ED till they are comfortable with it subconsciously before moving for even more speed [ equating to less/shorter movement which with practice gives you more speed to first round fired ].

2. It can cause limp wristing which results in short cycling the slide [ if semi autos are used ] thereby causing a malf which we see students having issues with shooting one handed many times with EU/ED [ particularly the female students initially ].

3. It should be reserved for those who have superb gun handling skills, do not have problems with weak wrists and can keep the gun stable from that position, at least enough to allow the gun to cycle reliably every time.

I've played with this in the last several months. Drawing the gun with elbow up till the muzzle clears the holster and immediately bending/cocking the wrist to bring the barrel/slide to horizontal as the trigger is pulled.

I don't allow the wrist to touch my body as the elbow would in EU/ED and showed the classes thusly. The gun is simply drawn, brought to bear on the threat by cocking the wrist and firing. With loose fitting or winter clothes, if the wrist is placed on the hip where the elbow would be normally in EU/ED, the clothes may impede the cycling of the slide. In the case of the revo, powder burns could be a real issue at the forcing cone area.

It works as a form of retention position, at the same time producing a faster first hit [ two circumstances where it could be employed effectively ]. It has a place in the arsenal of skills IMO but should not be a regular part of training students.

As I mentioned above, it was demonstrated as being faster than EU/ED and everyone was allowed to try it briefly, but not a lot of time was spent on this. I want the students who are amazed with EU/ED's speed to hits to understand there is still another way to be incrementally faster to some degree when they feel you are really pressed for time due to being behind the reactionary curve for whatever reason.

As the wrist is not placed on the torso in my own version for stated reasons above, again IMO, it should be used for a first shot and then the arm can move forward for subsequent shots until the elbow is placed in the EU/ED position. This all takes miliseconds to accomplish going from cocking the wrist as the gun clears the holster for the first shot to subsequent shots at EU/ED or leading into the zipper skills set.

If this skill is used with a slight "bump" of the hips, it gets even faster by bringing the muzzle to bear on the threat that much sooner. I've shown it both ways to the two clases giving them alternatives to this skills set as they have already been trained in the "bump" by that time so they understand that concept.

[Guantes]

Jim,

I use both. I will give you my take on the differences between the two.

The variation comes in the reduced ED when the wrist pivots the gun from a vertical to horizontal position. There is still some amount of ED as it is almost impossible, unless you are long waisted, to wrist pivot the gun to horizontal without some amount of ED. Try it and you will see some amount of ED.

It does result in firing from a more retentive position than the half hip normal with EU/ED. Close to what is often referred to as SN (South Narc) #2. EU/ED can be done to quarter hip, also a retentive type firing position.

The speed difference I would consider infintesimal, if any. This is because the wrist pivot in EU/ED ocurrs during the ED. Even if you take away the ED the wrist pivot is still required, so the time difference is minimal.

[Brownie]

G, do you think combining the bumping the hips forward at the same time would facilitate the gun being brought to bear quicker using just the wrist? It seems to me that it does, but that could be just a preceptual equation.

I think the timer will be the definative way to tell the tale on this one. I think I'll bring the timer to the Flagstaff class in two weeks and have a go at determining the times for both, taking the average for several runs both ways. I'll report back on the findings after the class in Flagstaff Sept 8-9

It won't be as accurate as EU/ED is IMO, especially the follow up shots, initially for most, due to the loss/lack of "indexing" the arm/elbow/wrist/hand with a part of the body.

Where Jim mentions placing the wrist on the body, it certainly can be as accurate with some time on this skill. In my own case, I'll reserve it for when times need to be faster to shots, and the action is "in your face"

edited to add:

If you watch the fast draw competitions, the shooters wrists are cocked up at the same time the gun is drawn and clears the holster. Almost to a man/woman, they bump their hips forward which helps facilitate the muzzle getting horizontal in shorter times.

[Guantes]

B,

I believe that the hip bump provides a marginal increase in speed in either the wrist only or EU/ED. I use it with both when going for absolute speed.

I think the biggest advantage of the wrist only method is the retentive position of the gun for really close encounters. Practice firing from retentive positions only increases the value of the method.

ETA: I think the advantage of the method (wrist cocking/uncocking) is more pronounced in quick draw. The reason is that the rigs are lower, hence no or minimal raise of the elbow, which allows freer movement of the wrist without moving the elbow. I agree that body (hips, etc) movement that elevates the muzzle simultaneous with the arm movement will increase speed.

[Brownie]

Thanks G,

I concur with the premise that "the biggest advantage of the wrist only method is the retentive position of the gun for really close encounters."

I like this for retentive work up close if needed as it still allows the weapon to be in a "lower" position like EU/ED while the offhand can fend off incoming limbs at the high/mid line if necessary and neither hand is potentially in the others way as in the high retention position like SNarcs #2 [ which I do not like for several reasons ].

If I have to worry about retaining the weapon from one, or more likely multiples due to proximity and their aggressing on my person with the gun out, I'm going to go to a CAR retention position and fight from there. In the CAR techniques, you can retain the weapon better than the #2 [ two handed on the gun, not one ] and your elbows become weapons to keep people at bay in close all the while capable of shooting them at any time.

With the #2, a second opponent can grab that chicken winged elbow or upper arm and control the arm/weapon too easily IMO vs the CAR retention positions.

[Guantes]

Another thing that comes into play. Most rigs designed for quick draw, (including my Hoyt) have a gunfighter (muzzle forward) cant of 25-45 degrees which reduces the wrist movement necessary to bring the muzzle on line. This is usually absent from high rise ccw rigs. In fact many have a reverse (muzzle back) FBI cant.

[Brownie]

Another thing that comes into play. Most rigs designed for quick draw, (including my Hoyt) have a gunfighter (muzzle forward) cant of 25-45 degrees which reduces the wrist movement necessary to bring the muzzle on line. This is usually absent from high rise ccw rigs. In fact many have a reverse (muzzle back) FBI cant.

G, I used to use the fbi muzzle to the rear [ canted 15 degrees is the norm ] holsters, but in the last years have gone to having straight drop holsters made for me. They are faster at EU/ED and certainly the muzzle forward would facilitate an even faster draw like your Hoyt.

[Guantes]

While I like the #2 position, I am not particularly fond of the elbow technique. I prefer my arm, loose so to speak, to be used for a variety of techniques, including indexing the weapon as in DATD.

[Dave James]

Don't really see a problem with this, as its just another lock spot to fire from.When I was training Mr.Bryce had me fire from the same spot and on foreword as the elbow slid along the rib cage, I don't like powder burnt shirts :D so I prefer the lock with the forearm or elbow at the waist

[JMusic]

I agree with you DJ. Trying this with my Jframe I burnt the **** out of my side.:eek: It is faster with the bump. I prefer the EU/ED but I would be hesitant to change some of the people I saw using this, they were pretty fluid. When 7677 and I discussed this he saw it used by older professionals too. DJ you learning this from KB sorta confirms that. It is an odd way to shoot a revolver though.:D Gloves the differences are minimal in speed. Thanks for the replies gentleman it appears it is more common than I first thought.

I've never used canted holsters, even the pancakes I used straight up and down. Probably because I scoop most of the time when I draw. G your South Narc 2 position was first shown to me in mid seventies as a retention position for building entries. I didn't like it much.

Jim

[Guantes]

Jim,

While I like the high retention position, by whatever name, for certain specific circumstances, I think its benefits fit a very narrow niche even though sometimes its attributes are suggested beyond.

I have done a fair amount of shooting with a revolver from this position and a slight outward cant has prevented me from suffering burnt shirts.

[Brownie]

the differences are minimal in speed

I agree, minimal reduction in time to first shot with this Jim. I demo'd this in the last two classes and let them experiment with it for a few minutes.

[7677]

Jim,
I like EU/ED for times when I'm not planning on extending any further but when I draw and fire throughout my draw stroke I tend to shoot between the position we talked about and the EU/ED position. This weekend if I get time I might play with both to see if one has any advantage over the other.

[alex]

I tried the wrist cocking draw in my indoor range ( using my 1911 Officers with X-Ring rubber bullets) ,
At 5 ft. when I draw and cock my wrist as far as it will go the shots are all on the COM.
Now I will try the technique with live fire and report back.

[DocH]

Late getting in on this one,but I used the technique,or at least played with it many years ago. I ruined a nearly new expensive suede jacket with powder burns using a revolver.I also felt it,even thru the jacket.
I don't know where it came from,I was just looking for more speed at the time. Doing it with a 1911 was ok,but I also slightly canted the pistol outward to keep anything from hanging up. It could be useful in a tight but IMO it's not the be all end all. Just another way to do it.