Learning from book or ?

[HHI 812]

After finding a copy of Lucky McDaniels instinct shootings many years ago, I've always wanted to learn it. But being a handgun buff, wanted to learn it with my handgun, mainly an old Norinco 1911 I've had for years also. Friends laugh at it because of its basically stock and worn condition, but even with their fancy sights and extra custom goodies, I almost always shoot the old thing better than they can with their custom 1911's. Big question is because I haven't seen any teachers up here in Anchorage, Alaska, is there a way of learning to instinct shoot my 1911 via book or ? Also have a .22lr conversion for my Norinco as well as 1911 airsoft. So have other practice options. Also, can I learn it in my garage using my airsoft? Not the aerial stuff, but like ground instinct shooting? Thanks for any help and/or suggestions,
Dennis

[Brownie]

HHI 812,

Welcome to the forum.

Read this link, it is the narrative I wrote on the pistol skills of QK as taught to me by McDaniel himself in 81. He did not write anything on the pistol skills, and only trained a few [ relatively speaking ] in the pistol shooting.

This link should get you started:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46

[HHI 812]

Thanks Brownie! Will check it out. What kind of accuracy can one expect on handgun instinct shooting say to 25 yards? Is there a maximum range that instinct handgun shooting can be accurately used say in defense situations as well as possible handgun hunting? I recall reading a book about this fella who was teaching the border patrol to shoot one hole groups, and I think he was using a similar type instinct shooting? Don't recall the distance though? And another fella had a system called shoot where you look. I think he was mainly teaching for shotgun shooters?
Dennis

[Brownie]

And another fella had a system called shoot where you look.

Here's a link to Leon Measures and the above

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224&highlight=leon

I recall reading a book about this fella who was teaching the border patrol to shoot one hole groups, and I think he was using a similar type instinct shooting?

http://www.jimgregg.net/ The gentleman you are probably referring to is Jim Gregg. He was also a border agent and instructed them in "The Gregg Method of Fire Control", a threat focused system that was very accurate once learned.

I've got his book autographed by him here in the library. If you order one, he'll sign yours as well. His extensive chapter on eyes is the best I've seen written. It's worth the book alone.

What kind of accuracy can one expect on handgun instinct shooting say to 25 yards?

I would not be instinct shooting at 25 yds myself. I'd be going to front sight press automatically at that distance unless real precision was called for defensively and there was time to make that critical shot at that range.

I've put 17 9mm shots at 21 feet into a measured 1" group in the presence of 12 witnesses/students without speed using QK below line of sight just to determine how refined the system can be.

I've used QK at 20yds on a full size humanoid target, firing at a good clip and kept 22 45acp from a gov model in the torso. I used 8 in the gun and two reloads of 7 each.

For another idea of how accurate QK can be with a pistol, this from another thread:

45 yd shot on a lizard on the bank, QK quick shot cut it in half. The lower half of the body fell down the bank. One of the guys witnessed the shot [ forum member beagles ], as I told him to check the lizard out on the bank first. Could not probably duplicate that shot again in 20 years.

The witnesses comments:

I witnessed the Lizard QK shot. I thought he was going to slow fire at it using sights, but he just pulled the pistol up into his line of sight and pulled the trigger and just like that cut the damn thing in half! I couldn't believe he made the shot! I watched the other half roll down the bank, too! All I can say is I wish I had it on Video because that was a once in a life time shot!

The above was using a new CZ PCR 9mm. Gun shoots great, very instinctive.
Here's the thread those posts are from:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=869

[HHI 812]

Brownie,
Yes, those are the 2 guys! Its been a while, and I went digging around for the books, and found them. Got a little manual from Leon, and got an autographed copy from Jim, although its written out to my wife. I ordered the book, but used my wife's paypal account, so he wrote it out to her name. No problem, but pretty informative. I also have the military manual, that I found a long time ago also. Also recall reading about a guy Keaton(excuse the spelling if its wrong), but I think he also taught instinct shooting with a 1911? Per your suggestion, I will leave my sights on for long distance shooting, but might have to tape the front sight when trying instinct shooting so I don't cheat and use the sights. I guess some folks can really shoot with this method! I also have a laser light gadget that I fit into the muzzle, and when the hammer drops, shoots a laser light blink on whatever I'm shooting. This gives me cheap practicing indoors, like my airsoft 1911.

[Brownie]

Also recall reading about a guy Keaton(excuse the spelling if its wrong), but I think he also taught instinct shooting with a 1911?

That would likely be James Keating from Walla Walla, Washington. I've trained with Jim over many years in the blade. In 1999, he started training a few people in a skill he learned from two USArmy personnel while in ROTC. That skill was in the use of a gov45 using your middle finger to pull the trigger and the index finger to point along the slide. The army personnel told him that this skills could only be used well with a 1911 due to the SA trigger and the use of the middle finger to pull the trigger.

Jim related to me that he had never had much success with it past short distances inside around 12 feet but that it worked well up to that distance. The USArmy instructors told him and others in class that it was called Quick Kill, and he then reiterated what he had been told to others, passing the knowledge they gave him to people mistakenly thinking all along what he had learned was QK [ which it was not not ].

Using the middle finger to pull the trigger is not QK as taught by McDaniel. Where the army guys learned that is unknown at this time, but what is known is that the USArmy never adopted McDaniel's pistol skills in the mid 60's.

I tape students sights ocassionally if they are having a particularly hard time adjusting from their normal method of utilizing either both sights or just the front sight to shoot. Each student is an individual and thus we find varying degrees of difficulty to others adopting the skills set, immediately adjusting their mindset to just let it happen.

My signature line is the reason why some have more difficulty adjusting to threat focused skills than others.

[HHI 812]

Tried the middle finger on the trigger, and didn't like it. Wasn't natural to me? It did work a little on my left(weak hand) hand some? But as I read in Lucky's book, instinct shooting his method should work either side. Also saw a post on this site, of someone you showed on how to defend a knife. I'm no martial arts person, but would like to learn some basic defensive skills. I thought the standard bent arm or take the arm with the knife is the only way to go? But then again, that is what I thought from watching TV? As far as instinct shooting, Lucky's way is "THE WAY"!

[Brownie]

Tried the middle finger on the trigger, and didn't like it.:D Not many do who have experimented with it to my knowledge.

As far as instinct shooting, Lucky's way is "THE WAY"!

Dennis, its one way, and a damned good one at that used in the correct context of the fight.

I mention it's one way [ yes a very very good way ] to shoot instinctively, but then so is quick fire, as well as Fairbairn/Sykes/Applegates methods developed before and then during ww2.

Each has it's strengths based on the scenarios time and distance equation.

[CCWMan]

You asked about learning from a book. I taught myself point shooting by studying Col. Applegate's text: "BULLEYES DON'T SHOOT BACK: The Complete Text of Point Shooting for Close Quarters Combat: By Applegate and Janich. Published by Paladin Press. ;)

[Brownie]

HHI 812,

How about a progress report with the various threat focused skills practice?

CCWMan,

Both good sources to develop these FAS skills. Good to hear you were able to grasp the concepts from narratives and then the vid by Mike Janich and Rex Applegate.