Draw Initiation Grip

[Guantes]

Which do you use and why?

I am aware of three grip methods to initiate a draw; I would be interested in any others anyone knows.

1) Finger Initiation
This is where the fingers initiate the draw and the thumb comes on during the draw process. I believe this enables the quickest draw but with ccw use it may cause problems. With a loose garment (shirt) underneath the weapon it is easy for the fingers when wrapping the grip to pinch the garment (shirt) b/t the fingers and the grip, slowing or fouling the draw. I consider the thumb cock draw a finger initiation.

2) Thumb Initiation
This is where the thumb initiates the draw by sliding b/t the weapon and the shirt/body and the fingers come on during the draw process. This method imo is slightly slower than the finger initiated draw, but resolves the garment problem as the thumb moves the weapon away from the garment enough that the fingers do not pinch it.

3) Full Grip Initiation
This is where the entire hand grips the weapon befor the draw is initiated. This is imo the slowest of the three, but probably eleminates any grip fumbling or misgrips.

So, which do you use and why?

[Brownie]

Good thread and question Guantes-----

If I'm OWB, I use the finger initiation method, and that is my preference of the three at all times.

If I'm IWB with a t-shirt or sweatshirt, I'll usually use the thumb to keep the shirt up and out of the way in conjunction with the fingers initiation at the same time. See I told you I prefer the finger initiation;)

If I'm IWB or OWB, and the shirt is open, I'll use the finger initiation method again.

I won't use the full grip initiation. I don't believe it is necessary and as you state, it is slow, when time is probably of a major concern on the draw stroke.

[JMusic]

On full size weapons like a 1911 or BHP I'm probably a thumber. On smaller weapons I use the finger technique. I was trained though to hit the weapon with the web of my hand and then grasp. With the right holster you could get the weapon to almost jump up which helped in the speed. Any one remember the holsters to where you had to tilt and turn your weapon to get it out? It had a full slit down the front. What a joke.
Jim

[Guantes]

JM,
The problem I have with the thumb or the web, which I use on occasion when I have to, is that you have to do a direction change from down on to the gun then up. With the fingers if you do it right there is no direction change, its all up.

By chance were you talking about the Hoyt breakfront. I used one for a number of years. You really didn't have to torque the gun just rip it forward. They were pretty quick, but $100 was a lot of dough for a holster back then.
IIRC one thing nice about them was they would custom make them for you with however much drop or cant you wanted.

[Brownie]

The problem I have with the thumb or the web, which I use on occasion when I have to, is that you have to do a direction change from down on to the gun then up.

That was something I worked with Steve on. He was doing just that and didn't have the speed he could, but he's all set now;)

With the fingers if you do it right there is no direction change, its all up.

Steve's working diligently on this right now.

One of the reasons [ speed ] I've been a fingers initiation method type of guy for a long long time.

[JMusic]

Yep thats the holster. Your right you could just rip it forward. Shooting left handed I didn't have the choices you are talking about. I found that with a slight twist it came out easier. Maybe I just didn't give it a chance but I hated it. I need to see what you guys are talking about on drawing. Always interested in improvement.:)
Jim

[sweatnbullets]

Any chance of getting pictures of what you guys are talking about?:confused:

[Roundeyesamurai]

The old Hoyt break-front holster is being remade by Rusty Sherrick:

http://www.c-rusty.com/pages/holsters/large/mceleheny.htm

Although it's pictured with a J-frame, Sherrick makes them for a number of different guns.

[Guantes]

Here is a pictue of the original.
IRRC this one is with a 4" drop and 35d gunfighter cant with my 27 3-1/2".
One bad MoFo.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Gloves, you're old school in a way that even Sir Mix-A-Lot couldn't rap about. :cool:

[Brownie]

Looks fast to me:eek:

[JMusic]

Thats much more user friendly than I had. I was using a 5 inch 27 also. Short story. We had a man rip one of these holsers (trying to get it away from an officer) completely off a Sam Brown belt. UNbelievable. The guy looked like a pro linebacker. He killed the officer with his own weapon. These holsers rode high and seemed to be thicker.
Jim

[Guantes]

RES,
If I knew who Sir Mix-A-Lot was I would have some idea whether what you said was a compliment or an insult.:confused:

JM,
This one was custom made for me.

[Roundeyesamurai]

He's an old-school rapper, Gloves. He was the one who did "Baby Got Back".

It was a compliment, believe me. :cool:

[steve2267]

The problem I have with the thumb or the web, which I use on occasion when I have to, is that you have to do a direction change from down on to the gun then up.

That was something I worked with Steve on. He was doing just that and didn't have the speed he could, but he's all set now;)

With the fingers if you do it right there is no direction change, its all up.

Steve's working diligently on this right now.

One of the reasons [ speed ] I've been a fingers initiation method type of guy for a long long time.
If you watch me here:
Steve 1/2 hip Sep 2005 (Before Sightless in Tucson) 320x240 6.8MB (http://www.threatfocused.com/videos/steve_agc_ps_sep2005_320x240_30fps.WMV)
Steve 1/2 hip Sep 2005 (Before Sightless in Tucson) 640x480 22.7MB (same video, just bigger, better quality) (http://www.threatfocused.com/videos/steve_agc_ps_sep2005_640x480_24fps.WMV)

You can see my drawstroke before I trained under Brownie, 7677, and Matt Temkin at Sightless in Tucson in October 2005. Hopefully you can see that my drawstroke has improved a lot under the watchful eye of Brownie by comparing those before videos to the video of my shooting Ankeny's 2-2-2 drill in 2.14 seconds.
(http://www.threatfocused.com/videos/Steve2267ShootsAnkenys_2-2-2drill_in_214sec.avi)
In the Sep 2005 video clips I'm definitely pushing down on the sidearm with the web of my hand, and also trying to get my thumb between the gun and my body. In the Ankeny 2-2-2 drill video clip, the draw is much improved, and I'm trying to pull the gun out with just my three fingers (middle, ring, and pinky); that is, I'm trying to NOT push down on the gun at all with the web of my hand, nor am I trying to jam my thumb down between the gun and my shirt.

There still appears to be a slight hitch, or pause in my draw in the Ankeny 2-2-2 drill video clip. However, when slowing down the clip or just playing it over and over... I think what may look like me pushing down slightly is rather a slight bend in my knees causing my beltline to dip ever so slightly at the same time that my hand arrives on the gun. Of course... working with a leather IWB (my standard carry gear), makes my drawstroke a bit more challenging...

[Brownie]

Steve, I believe Roger also brought this subject up with you in Tucson as well didn't he while you two were talking at a break?

[steve2267]

Steve, I believe Roger also brought this subject up with you in Tucson as well didn't he while you two were talking at a break?

To be honest, I don't recall. I was shooting down at Roger's end of the line... so he may very well have mentioned it and given me some pointers.

[DocH]

Never gave it much thought,but after seeing this I saddled up and just used my usual draw. I find that I am initiating the draw with the fingers first.
Found out something about myself.

[Ankeny]

I go to the gun from the top or side regardless of hand position when the decision to draw is initiated. Not saying it's right, it's just what I have been taught.

[Brownie]

Ron,

I'm probably doing the same thing. When finger initiatiation is mentioned, it doesn't mean the hand is not above the gun, it only means the fingers are used to take it from the holster.

If you look for my post on my one handed draw from under a t shirt, http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124 post #6, you'll see my hand is at the gun from above [ it has to be ], but my fingers are being used to initiate that draw.

[Ankeny]

Brownie:

Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking in terms of the old "scoop" where the hand comes up from the bottom passing right on by the gun. The gun is scooped from the holster and the grip is formed as the gun is lifted.

[Brownie]

thinking in terms of the old "scoop" where the hand comes up from the bottom passing right on by the gun

I would perform that from an exposed duty rig in uniform because I could. I also was doing that pretty much on the 2-2-2 drill with that Bladetech Stingray.

When having to lift the shirt over and out of the way, the hand is above the gun but my fingers still snatch it out of the holster initially. I do not put the web of my hand down onto the gun to initiate draws.

[Guantes]

Ankeny,

What is your opinion of that, the scoop, as you call it ?

Brownie,
I agree on open carry, but with an open front garment it is still viable. The garment can be moved from below the level of the gun.

[Brownie]

Guantes,

Yes, open front garment carry I use the finger initiation as well.

I do not put the web of my hand down onto the gun to initiate draws.

[kilogulf59]

Which do you use and why?

I am aware of three grip methods to initiate a draw; I would be interested in any others anyone knows.

1) Finger Initiation
This is where the fingers initiate the draw and the thumb comes on during the draw process. I believe this enables the quickest draw but with ccw use it may cause problems. With a loose garment (shirt) underneath the weapon it is easy for the fingers when wrapping the grip to pinch the garment (shirt) b/t the fingers and the grip, slowing or fouling the draw. I consider the thumb cock draw a finger initiation.

2) Thumb Initiation
This is where the thumb initiates the draw by sliding b/t the weapon and the shirt/body and the fingers come on during the draw process. This method imo is slightly slower than the finger initiated draw, but resolves the garment problem as the thumb moves the weapon away from the garment enough that the fingers do not pinch it.

3) Full Grip Initiation
This is where the entire hand grips the weapon befor the draw is initiated. This is imo the slowest of the three, but probably eleminates any grip fumbling or misgrips.

So, which do you use and why?

I am not certain how to categorize my grip, never actually reflected upon it, so let me attempt to illustrate what I do and you can evaluate (assessment and commentary welcome as I am self-taught).

As to my draw stroke, it is a circular continuous motion and invariable whether I am carrying concealed (preferred) or not, working for cross-draw, appendix, or strong side (customary mode).

For the sake and simplicity of explanation, lets assume I am carrying concealed at roughly the three-o’clock position:

The gun hand sweeps under the cover garment, from the front, in somewhat of a chopping motion, and down towards the holstered weapon. The fingers rather spread, with the little finger leading through and under the garment. The fingertips maintain a faint contact with the body.
Whilst the hand nears the holsters low-front area, it starts the upward motion of the circle and the ring and middle fingers making contact with the grip.
Simultaneously, the thumb releases the thumb-break, (even if there isn’t one, I keep the movements the same, constantly) and I complete the grip by pulling the weapon up into the hand.
The elbow then comes straight up and, just as the weapon clears the holster, the elbow comes down (EU/ED) into a close or quarter-hip position (or continues out and into the appropriate shooting/ready position).I trust my analysis was comprehensible as I found it a bit difficult to clarify. As conceded, I have never in fact scrutinized, in depth, my method (of course, now it’s like a song that gets stuck in ones head and wont go away) so any tips or pointers would be welcomed.

[Guantes]

KG,
From you description it sounds like you are using a finger initiation. The way to tell is if the thumb is coming onto the weapon during the draw, I consider it finger initiated. If the thumb assumes its position befor the weapon starts to move, then it is grip initiated.

I use a method slightly different than yours. My last three fingers are curled, in a grip position. These three fingers hook the garment and sweep/pull it back horizontally, from a starting position lower than the grip of the gun. When the hand is sufficiently far back the hand raises and the curled fingers "hook" the grip on the way by. The rest of the hand and the thumb coming on during the course of the draw. I do not use thumb straps.

I use the lower hand position to move the garment as I have found that sometimes with lightweight garments (summer) if the hand starts from waist level or above it is possible for the garment to move in the area of the hand but not down by the hemline. This creates a sort of horizontal "V" shape in the garment and can be a problem. Some use weights in the hemline to prevent this. I have found it easier just to initiate the garment movement from a lower position. In addition to the garment issue, by initiating the movement lower, the hand is in the position to sweep the gun up prior to its ever getting to the gun.

[kilogulf59]

Howdy Mr. G,

Our styles are close...and yes, based upon your explanation it is a finger initiation grip...thanks.

I've have the same issue with light weight garments like windbreakers and put my SA knife in the right hand pocket. I believe Bill Jordan mentioned this also advising a few cartridges instead. hey, more spare ammo.

[Guantes]

KG,

I have heard the various techniques for weighting a garment, which do have merit. As I most times wear a shirt, either heavy overshirt or light summer shirt with no pockets in the lower part of the garment, I chose to change my overall approach to moving the garment, thereby eliminating having to deal with the weighting issue.

[kilogulf59]

G,

I tried your method, works well and is an easy transition for me.

Thanks.

[oregonshooter]

3) Full Grip Initiation

Eleminates any grip fumbling or misgrips. There is never a reason to sacrifice surity of grip over minute speed IMO. If you are trying to quickdraw someone from cover, you are so far behind the curve that the tiny bit of speed gained will be of no use.

At ECQB you are asking for a gun foul.

We talk about having a gun that goes bang 100% of the time as the only acceptable percentage, why would anyone practice a technique that does not live up to the same expectations when the speed benefits are about nill?

This is all from cover obviously, which is 99% of your draws in todays concealed society.

[Guantes]

OS,

I believe that there are "gunfighters" past and present that would disagree with your assessment, in regards to both speed and draw initiation.

If by "gun foul" at ECQB you are referring to interference by the opponent, there are methods to alleviate that.

Everyone should live within their capabilities, while trying to improve them.

[oregonshooter]

Would disagree by saying that you should sacrifice a secure grip for speed?

Who would that be?

Is it easier to foul a draw that is less secure or not? A draw stroke that starts out on shakey ground is gonna be easier to "fumble" as it was well put.

[oregonshooter]

Having reread this thread, I'm wondering if I'm not comprehending the terminology being used?

By full grip (#3) I was thinking the web of the hand touches the backstrap, thumb is in flagged or wrapped down position and fingers forma "master grip."

I do not push down past the point of contact like Steve was showing in his first video (steve, your second vid link is bad) but I don't use fingers alone to bring the gun out.

I'm still not sure what the diff is between Brownie's description of a "finger lift" and the IPSC "pop" method?

[Guantes]

OS,

First, let me say that I am not trying to convert anyone, only relate my own experiences and opinion. People should use what they are comfortable with.

One point of confusion might be in the phrasing. Draw Initiatiation Grip, was not meant to infer that the draw is completed in that manner, only initiated that way.

On sacrificing a secure grip, I guess that depends on what one considers secure, at any given point in time during an action.

The method to eliminate "fumbling" in most things is practice.

I would concur with your definition of #3 Full Grip.

I am not familiar with the IPSC "pop", so I cannot comment on that.

[oregonshooter]

Gloves, (if I may?)

The IPSC "pop" is probably the same as the "scoop" Ron referred to and is the fastest draw I have seen, but requires a very loose holster or IPSC platform holster so it's really not a good one except for games.

The version I know is that you draw up from below the holster ( hands relaxed at sides) and "hook" the grip with your 3 or 4 fingers and curl them as you make contact to "pop" the gun out of the holster and into your hands web area as you move to extension.

I'm thinking the differences we are talking about here, are not going to be explainable unless there are some true orators on this board. Maybe a video could show it?

Steve? video?

[Guantes]

OS,

Be my guest (re Gloves).

From your description we are talking about the same or very similar things.

The draw comes from below, after clearing the cover garment, with the fingers hooking the grip. The fingers (three) are curled from the time of clearing the cover garment through hooking the grip. The thumb coming over the backstrap and on during the course of the draw.
The holster that I use is not loose fitting, but is a nylon material that is very slick. I don't know if it would be as effective from a leather holster, maybe others can comment on that. I am not a gamer or competitor, my practice is for the real thing. I have used this type of draw for a long time in many real situations without any problem.

I make no claim to being any kind of true orator.

I have a VC, but not the means to load it on a computer, so I cannot accomodate that idea.

[steve2267]

Steve? video?

Sssnhsgsssnhsgss.... huh? Wha?!?

Are you asking if it's ok to post video clips? Or links to video clips? Or are you asking me to put up some video clips?

Posting a link to a video clip stored elsewhere is fine. If you have a video clip you would like to post, but do not have a server... PM me and I'll see if I can accomodate you.

Videos might help here, they might not. Depends on what you can see in the video, how clearly you can see, and if the video can be slowed down to illustrate a point. But they mighthelp.

As everyone should see, in my earlier video clips, I was obtaining a good, firm, secure grip. In fact, it appears that I was actually pushing down on the gun with the web of my hand to get a nice high-ride grip position. Only problem? It's slow -- compared to what Guantes is talking about. I have been working hard at yanking or scooping the gun out of my holster with only my three fingers. I find that as long as I clear my garment well, I obtain a good grip that is plenty secure, and a LOT faster than what I had been doing. Is it as secure as my old grip? Maybe not, but I think it is plenty secure for the task at hand. The only area that may be a problem is if I don't clear my cover garment all the way. On the other hand, with the method Guantes describes, if the cover garment get's in the way, often times I can draw through the garment and the garment comes out during the draw. This is not possible with the (for lack of a better description) full grip.

The best word that describes the draw to me is that I snatch the gun out of the holster. The web of my hand comes onto the backstrap as my thumb comes down on my 1911 safety.

[Brownie]

I use a Milt Sparks IWB's for either the G17 or the Gov45's which securely hold the gun in the holster without thumb straps. Either holster allows me to use the
finger initiation method quite well [ which is how I have always drawn the handguns from holsters of any type for near 30 years now.

With this method, by the time the gun is clearing the holster, the thumb has curled/made contact with the opposite side of the grip and the web of the hand has made contact [ the gun being drawn up and out of the holster by the fingers into the web of the hand while it is moving up out of the holster ].

I draw the same guns from kydex OWB holsters the same way when going for pure speed of presentation. Though easier to get up and out than the IWB leather rigs, the draw stroke/finger initiation is the same.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129

The video of my .43 draw to first shot shows the finger initiation method I use both for either type of holster as described above. You can see the fingers curled, off the grip, and waiting to lift the gun from the holster at the buzzer.

In .43 seconds, the gun has cleared the holster and the gun has been secured in the hand as the gun clears on it's way to going horizontal to fire.

The following pics show the progression of the finger initiatian from my IWB Sparks with the G17. The gun is securely in the hand by the time it clears leather. I have not experienced any fumbling and the gun is ready to fire the instant it has cleared.

Clearly shown is that the web of the hand has not and does not come into contact with the backstrap of the weapon nor is necessary to prevent fumbling of same during the draw. By the time the gun needs to be secured in the hand to fire, it is.

Steve, remember I sent you this sequence to help you with that finger initiation draw?

[steve2267]

Steve, remember I sent you this sequence to help you with that finger initiation draw?

Yes I do. Both your verbal descriptions and photo sequence along with conversations with Guantes have helped my draw a lot. Now it's just practice practice practice.

I fixed the second link in my earlier post should anyone want to go watch it. (It is titled Ankeny's 2-2-2 drill in 2.14 seconds or something like that.) In that video, it might appear that I am pushing down on the 1911, but I don't think so. Notice that my knees end just after the buzzer sounds: the bending combined with my hand slowing as it gets on the pistol creates, IMO, an optical illusion that I am pushing down on the gun. The gun dips not because I push down on it, but because I am bending at the knees.

One thing I do not like about my draw in that video is that my hand motion from resting to gripping the pistol is linear... not circular. I need to work more at a circular motion. One issue though, is that my leather IWB holster (Alessi PCH) holds the grip very close to my body, and I can't just scoop the gun at full hand speed... that guarantees getting several fingers full of shirt. Shirt between my three fingers and the pistols grip is no good. A little shirt between my palm and the pistol grip's backstrap can be overcome -- the shirt comes out as the gun comes forward. I'll see if I can make some video clips.

[Brownie]

One issue though, is that my leather IWB holster (Alessi PCH) holds the grip very close to my body, and I can't just scoop the gun at full hand speed... that guarantees getting several fingers full of shirt.

If you look at those photos and remember what I told you about how to clear the garment with your fingers and then the thumb, you won't have that problem Steve.

[Brownie]

I should also add that the G26 is drawn the same way with the finger initiation method and the gun is securely in a firing grip as it clears the back pocket.

If the gun were not in a properly secured grip by the time it cleared a holster or the back pocket [ with the method I use ], I could not get .43 times to first shot with COM accuracy IMO.

It all happens in the blink of an eye. I've drawn this way for near on 3 decades as it has always proven to be faster to draw the gun as well as fumble free from holsters I've used. In fact, during the times I would mexican carry without a holster, it was the same finger initiation method that got the gun up and moving into my hand to get a grip on them.

The g26 is carried in the back pocket in a certain way so that the fingers CAN grab/snag the grip to get it moving in the direction it needs to go which is up and out of the pocket and into the web of my hand. It's actually faster to draw from this carry for me than from any holster up on the belt due to less distance the hand has to move to acquire the gun.

[steve2267]

One issue though, is that my leather IWB holster (Alessi PCH) holds the grip very close to my body, and I can't just scoop the gun at full hand speed... that guarantees getting several fingers full of shirt.

If you look at those photos and remember what I told you about how to clear the garment with your fingers and then the thumb, you won't have that problem Steve.

Woops, sorry. I didn't frame the context properly. When I have a garment tucked into my pants that then sits inside my holster -- between the holster/gun and my skin... then if I go to fast, my curled fingers can end up grabbing a bunch of shirt, undershirt etc. This becomes an issue during training after a number of draws -- the undershirt gets bunched up, and the curled fingers tend to catch on a fold in the shirt.

At the range today, when I cleared my closed front polo shirt properly, there was no issues... accept my fingernails digging into my skin... time to trim them again! :rolleyes:

[Brownie]

Steve,

That second link to the vid is still not working for us.

[oregonshooter]

OK, I think I finally got it! I had to just quit thinking about it and do some reps to realise how subtle we are being here.

I made a quick (crappy) video of me drawing at 3/4 speed with each method (#1, #2, #3) then slowed the same footage down with the video software as slow as I could get it.

http://oregonshooter.com/video/123.wmv

I am not a #3 gripper after all, but the #2 style is my normal draw. Excuse the poor index, but I was trying to visualize the grip as I was doing them, not that my "two" shouldn't be automatic, but I have to admit I have not been practicing it much.

Two weeks and that will change, as I have a SouthNarc class coming up that will work mostly on the "two."

I did find that the "flagged thumb" works best for clearing the CG when using #1, but that the "curled fingers" worked better with #2 and #3.

My method, and one I will likely stick to, is the "curled finger lift" and #2 thumb initiate draw.

Thanks for the photo's Brownie, they really tied it in for me. Unless of course I'm still lost and just think I found the trail? LOL

[steve2267]

Steve,

That second link to the vid is still not working for us.

OH! THAT link! Fixed...

[oregonshooter]

Well that wasn't worth waiting for! The codec is something weird, can't see it on my Mac. :( Sounded fast though. :)

[7677]

Five pages on grip techniques....and I use what you say is the slowest :confused:
What method I use is based on the type of holster I use and its placement.

Above all.. what makes a fast draw... practice practice and more practice!

And, then some more practice!

[Guantes]

I admit I never expected this to go five pages. I think a large part of that is due to trying to exchange thoughts and ideas via this medium. Given a face-to-face environment, I suspect, a few minutes would clarify any misconceptions, although it may not change opinions.

The speed of the various methods is a hypothesis based on my personal experience. Indeed, others may find the contrary to be true.

Speed and the perception of speed, imo, can be subjective, objective or some of both. What may seem fast to one person, might seem slow to another. In reality, speed can be measured, thereby putting it in the objective realm.

To put things in context, the time differences involved are probably in tenths and sometimes even hundredths, depending on the individual and their speed and proficiency.

Most of the time, holster type, placement and clothing will affect, if not determine the method of draw that can be accomplished expediently.

Few, least of all I, would question that consistent, long term practice is essential to speed and proficiency.

I think it would be a source of comradery, enjoyment and possibly amusement to explore the concepts being discussed in a personal interactive exchange among interested parties. I would find it so, in spite of my aged, laggard condition.

I would never presume to imply that you are slow.:o

[7677]

Gloves,
My post wasn't directed towards you and my sarcasm even gets the best of me after reading five pages. :D

I think we forget what really makes us good and sets us apart from other shooters: Experience and Practice…Practice…Practice.

A smooth fast draw is what I look for in a student. Speed comes with practice but too much speed to soon leads to sloppiness. The draw also has to be able to be performed smooth and quickly while on the move too. Speed is subjective but good training will show you what level you are at. With my moving and shooting drill, the student has to start moving, draw, and get shots off in under three steps from “go”. The biggest problem I’ve noted is the fact that most students want to draw and then move.

The one thing that got me was the last time I went to a shooting class. The majority of students arrived wearing their duty holster but brought their "speed" holsters without any type of retention. The first day they shot with a duty holster and clothing and I can usually draw and get two shots on the target before most of them get their first shot off. The second day they switch over to their "speed" holster and rigged vests. Now these same guys that were fouling the draw with garments and duty holsters are on the same level I'm at.

Compared to some I am actually quite slow at the draw :cool:

[Guantes]

Your comments reflect my own experience. I've found generally that people fall into three areas. Those that do not think speed is important. Those that think speed is everything. Then, those that realize the importance of speed and its mating with other factors, such as movement, combatives, etc. Few in any of the groups are willing to expend the necessary time to become truly fast.

I personally believe that those who, outside of gaming/competition, train with speed rigs as opposed to their EDC rigs are merely blowing smoke up their own butt. The sad part is that by doing so, they are creating a false sense of ability in their own mind. This false sense of ability may come back to really bite them someday. I'm actually surprised that a noncompetition class would allow these type of rigs to be used. It strikes me like doing evasive driving training in a Farrari, when you normally drive a Ford.

I was given a perspective and demonstration of how fast I wasn't (type of rig aside) one afternoon jawing with Bob Munden.

[Brownie]

Though I practice drawing with the carry rigs [ sometimes IWB, other times OWB, dependant on the heat, when I'm training others I use an OWB rig not in my carry systems just for convenience.

My daily carry rig will be drawn no less than a dozen times a day with the speed of an emergency "O' S**t" situation attitude, and the same amount of times I find I'm also checking/adjusting the gun in the holster to keep it "light" for a faster drawstroke if needed.

By checking/adjusting I mean I lift the gun slightly from the holster and reseat it lightly as I have found the gun will settle during the day and consequently the holster doesn't want to give the gun up as easily, slowing the draw.

JMusic and I have discussed this lately in our discussions. He mentioned he does the same thing often during the day as well. I don't even consciously do this, it is just a habit formed from years of preparing to go into potentially dangerous situations.

Almost pulled the trigger on taking Mundens week long summer school three years ago G. One day I'd like to get up there for that one. I'm not interested in the six shooters he has you use, or have to have worked on before taking the class, but the man could show me a few tricks of the trade that would benefit the speed of the draws and hitting things.

[Guantes]

I can understand using a convenient rig when teaching.

My regular rig is owb. It is my preference and the weather up here and the related clothing negates problems present in warmer climates.

Interesting, about periodically adjusting your piece in the rig. Do you guys carry in leather rigs. I carry in a nylon (or similar material) rig that is pretty slick (slippery), so I have not noticed that problem. The primary retention in addition to fit, is that I run the belt in the outside loops (see pic), the holster is ambidexterous so it has belt loops on both sides. In addition, it pulls the rig in closer than can be done using inside loops, for better concealment.



I agree re the SA thing with Munden. That said, he is amazing.

[Brownie]

Every carry rig I have is leather, usually handboned to the gun. Very tight when new, most break in within 100-200 draws.

Their being boned/molded to that particular gun, the holster has the tendancy to hold the gun very secure, there being no retention straps on my carry rigs G.

[Guantes]

I don't like straps either.
Maybe things are better now, but the leather squeak always made me think I was on a horse.

[JMusic]

Yep, mine are mostly leather too. I just purchased a rig like you have G but haven't used it yet. I have used the belt on the outside of pancakes before to help hold the weapon when climbing around buildings and such. Normaly I go inside.

Jim

[Guantes]

Jim,

I haven't found anything yet that I like as well, that incorporates, speed, concealability and security in one package. I'll be anxious to hear what you think of yours when you have had a chance to wear it a while.

[JMusic]

Will do G. Brownie mentioned slightly raising the pistol to "unstick" the piece from the holster during the day. On thing that helps is spraying the inside with a teflon spray that drys. I do two things habitualy. One the pistol raise and two I check the mag to make sure its locked in. I do them both almost subconsciously, always have in the 30 some years I've carried.

Jim

[JMusic]

G. I've been wearing the holster since we last talked. Its made for K frame Smiths but I have my 638 in it. No sticking and quicker than hell. Your right again. Must come with age!:p

Jim

[Guantes]

Jim,

Glad to hear it is working well for you, I agree they are quick like a snake.

When you get as old as I am, you hope you picked up a few things along the way.:rolleyes:

[RTBRANE]

Brownie,
For leather holsters, I use something obtained from Mitch Rosen Leather.(not sure what business name currently used) It is called Leather Lightning. Half oz bottle. Put a drop on finger, rub areas that touch the gun. Usually takes a couple drops per application. Wait 5 minutes, and go. Found Galco had what I believe is the same item, at the '04 SHOT show. They call it DRAW-EZ. Also in a half oz bottle. This stuff really makes hosters not stick to guns. How often you apply depends on holster use and weather, I think. Has no bad effect on leather that I've noticed. Been using it for about ten years. I think I'm still using my original bottle, maybe a quarter left!
Just noticed my original bottle has the manufacturer? listed on back. Phoenix Armory, Inc. POB 444, Eagleville, PA, 19048-0444

[Brownie]

RTBRANE;

I have a small bottle of it that came with my Rosen holster for the BHP [ P-35 ] I used to have. Works as you describe, never thought to use it after the initial application though:o .

Apprecitate the heads up on where to get more of the same for the members here in the future.