Battle rifles

[JMusic]

Since I recently had the oppertunity to pick up a SA M1A in near mint condition I've been doing some thinking. If I only had one choice whick one would I take. Hands down the AK wins the "If I was going to the moon I'd want an AK" vote. I'm not sure I fall into that catagory. If you look at the three rifles pictured you will see a SKS that has some extensive work done to it to set it up for my shooting preference. You will see a bone stock Government model A2 (pre ban) and you will see my newest rifle the SAM1A again bone stock. Notice the simularites to the SKS which I built 20 years ago. So if you had one rifle to take what would your choice be. After shooting the Springfield I'd have to pick that platform.

Jim

[DocH]

I know that AK's are "all that" but I have never been able to get past the bad guy image that they represent to me. It's a mental thing that I've tried to conquer and can't.
The M1A is a heavy weapon but I like heavy weapons.I prefer the 18" scout myself for faster handling,but of the three I'd have to go with the M1A.

I have a Bushy AR 15 more for availabiliy of mags and ammo than anything else,but if I didn't own it I wouldn't be too upset.The wife can handle the lack of recoil too,where she would not like that of a .308.

The M1A it is,for me anyway. Although I may be a runt,I want a man size gun.

[Brownie]

That Model 9106 SA sure looks like the right choice to me Jim:D

Now put an Arms #18 receiver mount on it, mate up a ranging scope with the Arms #19 mount and you have a two rifles in one there. Capable of reaching out futher with more knock their arses down than either of the other two.:eek:

Battle rifles rule

[Guantes]

For myself, I would want more info to make a decision. That info would deal with expected duration, mode of transportation and type of opponents at the very least. Given circumstances, any of the three might be the best choice.

[mercop]

I have a little thing I use when selecting tools- SCDU
Selection- depends on your eviroments and needs, too many people get hung up on what Deltasealcopcommandos are using.

Carry- are you going to be on patrol with it, is it going to be carried in a vehicle incase of need.

Deployment- depending on mission, how handy is is, is it reasonable for your personal circumstance

Use- all those skills

My prmary is a Troy Industries CQC Carbine

Enjoy your new rifle, whatever you choose.

[RAM]

Mercop,

Good points for selecting the right/best tool for the job at hand. I think in my case I need to add the following Letters...

F: Will the gun FIT in the current safes? :eek:

W: Do I WANT it bad enough to buy a new safe for storage. Hell yes! :D


Another way to look at it:

If I can only spend $1,500 on mission armaments what do I take that will get the job done?

One M1-A (M14)

One (or two real cheap) AR/s

Three to four AK's

Five to seven SKS's

:confused:

[JMusic]

I once had a discusion with my Dad on building clearing. I talked about the techniques we used to clear each room and how tense it sometimes became. His statement was this. We used tanks, bazookas, and hand granades. When we didn't have them we shot through the walls. I guess that thought process has influenced my preference for battle rifles. There is something comforting in knowing you can shoot through a tree or a block wall when you need to. With that in mind my choice became simple.:D

Jim

[Brownie]

If I can only spend $1,500 on mission armaments what do I take that will get the job done?

In Jims case, had he wanted to spend 1500.00, he could take that ANIB M1a and an SKS and have enough left over for 100rds of ammo for each:D

I changed Jim's photo of the rifles, my neck was getting stiff from cranking it to the left, it's a good looking M1a Jim:cool:

;)

[JMusic]

Many thanks for finding the "deal" on the rifle Mr. Brown and thanks again for rotating the picture. Maybe someday I will learn how to do that myself.

Jim

[DocH]

The picture was perfect for me as it was.I do my best work lying down.:D :D :D

Good score, Jim!

[Brownie]

Jim,

Deals come along all the time at the shop, you had expressed your interest while out here last year in wanting the next "deal" on an M1a that came along [ after seeing the "deal" I got on that NM stainless barreled M1a ];) . As it happened I was just the conduit before you found your own "deal" this time. No problem at all to helping you along in your quest sir.

I have a program that our admin Steve sent me a few months ago that can edit pics in all types of ways.

Thanks Steve :D

[Brownie]

Here's my go to choices if need be.

They've been shown here somewhere before, but here they are again anyway.

The desert sage is the battle rifle now. Equipped with Arms quick release mounts, it can be iron sighted capable in 5 seconds, and back to sniper capable in about the same time for those extra long shots without loss of zero. It is also mission capable with a mating mount which holds an AN-PVS4 second gen 4x night vision system for those times when it gets too dark to see:D

Two rifles in one gun, worth every pretty penny I have into it. Slings on both by Les Tam of Hawaii [ http://www.lestam.com/products.htm ]. The jarheads have their current slings made exclusively by Les. Both of mine have the Eagle Globe and Anchor [ EGA ], year they were made and my initials embossed on them. EGA emblems are not embossed on slings unless you can prove you were in the Corps or are currently in the Corps. SA range finding scope to 800 yds., I've only shot that desert sage to 600 yds currently.

That one holds 1.25 inch groups at 100 yds with the scope from a rest using milsurp Port 147gr ammo. Easily under that with any good 308 sniper load.

[RAM]

Jim,

What did you use for the spacer on the SKS? Their stocks tend to be a little bit short don't they.

Looks like a nice trio of rifles... The M1a looks brand new.

[JMusic]

Used Delrin as the spacer, then a shotgun Pachmyer recoil pad. Used Delrin also to fill the gap where the bayonet layed. Made a 3/8" dovetail and mounted it on the receiver then put a Williams peep on. Cut the front sight and added about 1/2" length to it. Made the compensator on the front to help rapid shots. Turned out to be a good rifle. I can pour it on someones ass with it in a hurry. I was surprised at how close the the SKS was to the M1A setup actually was. Notice the distance from end of stock to trigger. Spill over from my shotgun days I would guess. SKS's don't get their due. With this setup it at least has the feel of a battle rifle, though the distance it shoots is questionable. Its a stretch to call the AR a battle rifle in my opinion. The M1A though...:D


Jim

[Dave James]

AH!!! YOU PANSEYS!!!! :D :D Best bet going is a good quality FNFAL, easier to keep running and don't have to rebuild as often as the MIA,, Or better yet or equal is the G3

[JMusic]

Mr James what are you smokin!!!:D The FN FAL was designed for a smaller caliber. When NATO decided to go with the 7.62x51 The FAl had to be stretched to handle the new round. It seems to hold up well even though it wasn't engineered for that strong of a caliber.

Back to the M1A. I took it to the range today to shoot it some. Good thing I took along my range finder. Fifty yards was sixty three, one hundred was one hundred twent four and two hundred was two zero nine. I shot at 50 and 100. I put about 40 rounds through it then shot it for accuracy at onehundred and twenty four yards it shot the pictured group below. I don't think I did the rifle justice today it should shoot better. It was hot out and I was shooting off of a range bag using the peeps. About a 4.5 inch group.

Jim

[Brownie]

Jim,

If you didn't already do this, use the top of the front sight resting on the bottom of that black circle [ a 6 O'clock hold ]. That rifle will hold 1.5 with irons on a benchrest all day.

When I shoot mine, if I try to hold in the center of the target, they are all over the place in a 4" grouping. The eyes just aren't what they used to be, and a six O'clock hold will be more repeatable for groups

[JMusic]

Yeah I was doing that. I have to be honest though that is about the best I can see a target at 125 yards. I could easily vary the aim point a couple inches. I need a knew set of specs and then we will see what it can do. at 50 yds I was shooting clover leaves. At 125 it was hard for me to consistantly hold at the bottom. A jar head who was on leave seemed impressed with that sorry group so I don't feel as bad as I did.

Jim

[JMusic]

The range that is close to my home is really a pretty nice set up. Imagine concrete benches, with overhead covering. You can back your truck right up to the station. 50, 125, and 200 yard ranges. I didn't realize I had something like this that close to home. Got me to thinking what I need to truely utilize the range. I'm looking for a good spotting scope. Anyone have any suggestions. I'm not going to pay the price for a Zeiss or like priced scopes. 2-3 hundred would be what I'm interested in. Anyone have any recomendations let me know. Thanks in advance.

Jim

[Blade_Zero]

Jim,
You might want to visit optics talk they have some helpful folks over there and a dedicated spotting scope sub-forum. Don't exclude used equipment in your criteria.
http://www.opticstalk.com/

Brownie,
Have you considered a suppressor to round out your Day/Night, DMR/Battle rifle platform?

[Brownie]

Have you considered a suppressor to round out your Day/Night, DMR/Battle rifle platform?

I haven't given it much thought at all in the past. I'd like to know more about the actual sound suppression capabilities [ how quiet they actually make the rifle ], and which cans are considered the most quiet, how long they would have to be/are to make it the most quiet [ will it make the rifle cumbersome/unwieldy in this configuarion ] and cost.

Cost not being the biggest factor, but how effective they are at reducing the signature and then how cumbersome they make the rifle next.

[Gunslinger808]

Here ya go:
http://www.silencertests.com/
This will give you a pretty good overview of capabilities/comparisons/prices.
Right now I've got one on my M-4 (Tac 16) and the MP-5 in .40 S&W (GemTech Raptor) along with 2 for my .22 pistols and rifles (AAC Pilot and Tac 65).
Although they are not movie quiet on the centerfire rifles they do make it possible to shoot standard ammo without hearing protection.
On the .22s and the .40 they are very quiet.
I do make handloads for the 5.56 using 72 grain bullets that keep the rounds subsonic, and with those the sound is reduced to the point that you can't hear it from 25 yards away.
The downside is with the reduced charge it won't cycle the action.
If you put one on a bolt rifle and roll your own loads then you can get real close to the Hollyweird quiet.

[Brownie]

Thanks for the link Gunslinger,

We should talk about the options for either my AR10, or the M4 on this issue when we next hook up.

[Gunslinger808]

No problem, we need to get out so you can do some T&E with a few of these, aww heck who am I kidding, we just need to get together and do some blasting!
Another neat thing is that since suppressors work by trapping gas and unburned powder, there is virtually no flash signature to give away your position or interfere with NVDs.
I'll get some pics of the various ones I have on hand when I get home.

[Brownie]

Thanks GS808, looking forward to it

B

[Blade_Zero]

I better preface this by stating I'm not an expert and you will find more detailed info on silencertests.

People generally labour under misconceptions of what suppressors are used for, thanks to hollywood movies. Suppressors can't make a long range (> 300M) shooter silent but they can make them invisible. They have a synergistic relationship with NVD's. Since you allready have a good night fighting set up, why not exploit it to its upmost.

What I mean about invisibility is, your target can't range you via crack bang extrapolation because the muzzle report is suppressed, they can't get a bearing on you because the supersonic shock wave is perpindicular to the trajectory of the round, it echos off rocks & trees and tends to spoof the target to the origin of the fire, whereas unsuppressed muzzle report can vector your position. Suppressors are the ultimate flash hiders which again enhances concealment.

You are correct to be concerned about weight, I would prioritize weight over sound suppression, having a rifle "spooky" quiet is important to enthuasists but has little relevance to combat. Most rifle suppressors will mask the report at 200M.

To suppress an M1A you'll need the SEI gas lock front sight and a shuster adjustable gas plug, an AR10 will be quieter but again this is moot.

Here is a pic of R.Slivers set up, to give you an idea of the form factor.
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/PersonalProjects/IMG_4062.sized.jpg

[Brownie]

Blade_Zero;

Thanks for the information, and the pic sure looks nice. I've always considered cans to be for "offensive/proactive" vs. defensive applications in the past. It's easy enough to obtain one with the forms out here, and I may incorporate GS808's help in setting one of them up with the particular parts you mentioned above.

For those who don't know it, GS808 and his lovely wife co-own one of the best NFA shops out here in the west. AzEx here: http://www.azexarms.com/. He hesitates to advertise his wares/services and what that shop is capable of on this site feeling he's taking advantage of us even though he has carte blanche to do so here.

So I'm mentioning it for him--hope you don't mind GS:D

[David Williams]

Maybe it's because I've been using it for so long, but I'll keep my M4. I know, it's not really an M4, but I have trouble referring to it as anything else. That 16" 5.56 carbine has always done well enough for me. The only thing I might choose over the 5.56 is the 6.8SPC. Here's my reasoning:


I've put holes in plenty of people, and the 5.56 has always done its job.
The AR platform is more versatile; it's not a LD rifle and it's not the consummate entry weapon...but it gives you the best of both worlds and performs consistently.
It's light...and no matter what anyone says, weight is ALWAYS a factor. If I'm going to plan to carry something in my vehicle, it's going to be a 20mm Vulcan, not a 7.62 rifle.
I have an obscene amount of quality H&K mags for my AR.
I can run that gun.


Not to discourage you battle rifle guys, though. I love your guns - it's just not what I'd take. ;)

[JMusic]

I learned something new. I didn't think Marines needed rifles.:p Dave I feel the same for my A2. I've had it for about 20 years and can shoot the hell out of it. I don't consider the M16/m4 a battle rifle though, nor do I consider the SKS and AK's battle rifles. A battle rifle IMO should use a cartrige that has penetration capabilities beyond the above mentioned rifles. There correct terminology is probably Assault Rifle. The pistol caliber rifles like the Thomson, MP5, UZI etc would be called sub guns. Just my opinion.


Jim

[David Williams]

Jim -
You're right... I just don't have a battle rifle that I'd rather carry over my M4.

[JMusic]

Well I know what you mean Dave. I think I'm the influence on Brownies latest AR purchases. There's something about being able to shoot through tree's though that I find intreging.:D It will be a long long time before I have as many rounds through the M1A that I do through that old A2.

Jim

[Brownie]

I think I'm the influence on Brownies latest AR purchases

Yes sir, I now have enough of them to hand out to a platoon. This ones the latest that came in unfired, all tricked out, co-witnessed with flip up rear sight and NV capable Aimpoint attached to the rail with a quick release ARMS mount. It is a bushmaster flattop. The only thing I'm going to say is I paid what the rifle would retail for without anything on it.:D

Like I need another gun right:eek:

[Gunslinger808]

So I'm mentioning it for him--hope you don't mind GS

Thanks Brownie, I don't advertise here since it's your site and it should be about all things QK not about my shop.
Here's a pic I took of the suppressed rifles I have in the safe, we're going out later today so I had them here at the house.
10-22 with Tac 65, MP-5 in .40 with Raptor, and M-4 with Tac 16.
One note:
On the 10-22 subsonic ammo needs to be used otherwise you will get a sonic "crack" that's quite loud.
On the Walther P-22 you can use regular ammo since the barrel length (3.5") is not enough to get the bullet supersonic.

[Brownie]

GS,

Anytime you have something going at the shop you'd like to advertise, you are more than welcome to do so here. I don't think the site is all about QK, nor intend it be.

The exchange of information is paramount here, and if you've got things you think people would appreciate/learn from/look for etc, by all means post away.

Hell if you can't pop your wares in here anytime GS, you happen to know some people on here that can allow that right;) I like to see the toys, hear about the various products and what you consider to be good, bad or ugly, I'm sure others do as well.

Say hi to your better half for me sir. Stay sharp

[JMusic]

AH!!! YOU PANSEYS!!!! Best bet going is a good quality FNFAL, easier to keep running and don't have to rebuild as often as the MIA,, Or better yet or equal is the G3
__________________

DJ, I thought you were joking when I made my reply. After reading and doing some research you may very well be right. My appologies sir. I still think the M1A is the rifle for me but you made a good point and I should not have made lite of it sir.:(

Jim

[Blade_Zero]

The M14/M1A is a great rifle but the FAL is even better,
egros,
easier to strip,
adjustable gas system,
gas piston not connected to bolt - no bent op rod in the event of a bolt jam

Over 90 countries adopted the FAL vs 4~5 for the M14. If the U.S. had adopted it, I like to think that they wouldn't have forsaken it when the encountered the AK47 and its weight of fire doctrine, they would have just chopped the barrel to 16" and attached a compensator. The rest of the free world battled the AK with the FAL.

DSA have developed the FAL almost to perfection, including M16A2 style sights.

[Brownie]

Just recently gathered up a few FALs on a "can't pass up" combo deal.

Imbel receivers, South African parts. Ones out for a park job at the moment.

I've had some experience with the FALs as some friends owned them, built em themselves, or bought good Imbels, etc. We'd pull out the battle rifles for a morning session of 100-300 yrd competition. The FALs weren't as accurate as one of my rack grade M1a's but they ran long and hard with it.

By the time I came around these FALs of my buddies, I already had two M1a's, and HK91, and a AR10 so I never gave them another thought. Knew their reputation in battle and where they cut their teeth the hardest and all that, but damned if this thread didn't give em a second look again.

May not shoot either one much like I used to [ burning through the ammo by the cases back them in the battle rifles :o ] with the cost of ammo today but when it's time to play, they'll be ready to go along with other choices;)

[RAM]

Just recently gathered up a few FALs on a "can't pass up" combo deal.

Imbel receivers, South African parts. Ones out for a park job at the moment.


Wishing you many new guns and cheaper ammo this year!

I'm hoping to slow down on the acquisitions for guns for 08 myself. If I keep buying them like I have been, I'll need to get a job RAM. :o


Hehehehehehe:D

So much for that new year resolution.:eek:

Now if the ammo prices were better!

I have always wanted to add an FAL to the collection. ;)

[Brownie]

So much for that new year resolution

:o I know huh?:(

[JMusic]

Had a chance to shoot the M1A1 recently at distance. Not group shooting mind you just "see if you can hit this!" type shooting. RB and I started shooting rocks at about 500 yards. B was trained on this rifle and has a good grasp of judgeing distances of the desert. We would take turns shooting different spots on the surrounding mountains. I was amazed at the distances you could shoot. Shooting at objects the size of a refrigerator we could make hits out to 800 yds. No wonder our troops like this rifle over in the Middle East. I like this rifle, it is soft shooting and hard hitting at some long distances. Definately one for the rack.:D


Jim

[Brownie]

Jim,

When you get a chance why don't you throw up a few photos of the surroundings we were looking at for distance and targets of opportunity. You can own the world as far as you can see it without optics fairly easily with that bang stick of yours.

Johnny at the shop just ordered a NM stainless steel barreled M1a, it should be in today or tomorrow. He has the Arms mounts to scope it in hand as well. The gunsmith at Rio where we shot Sporting Clays will be putting that on for him end of this week. I'm sure another range session will follow shortly after that:D

We had some fun with that M1a didn't we?

[Thunder]

Can a newbie enter this exchange? Have been reading this thread with great interest.

I am about to purchase my first "battle" rifle. Right now I am partial to a .308
M1A "Socom". But a question has raised its ugly head.

Do any of you believe that a "bullpup" design can deliver battle gun performance in terms of "reach" and stopping power? If so, which one(s)?

Thanks.

[Brownie]

Thunder,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm not partial to bullpups, they don't shoulder well for me. Also keep in mind the bullpup design was an exercise in close quarters for the most part. As to reach, if the bullpup allows an 18" barrel in 308, you should not see much degradation out to 300-350, maybe 400 yds, but after that the shorter barrel vs the standard 22" M1a will drop off considerably faster so your "come up's" on the rear sight will be more to get it out there as far and with less velocity [ punch ] when it hits at those distances.

Socom is a nice gun, but at 16" barrel length will suffer the above problems at the longer ranges. The socom wasn't designed for the longer ranges and as long as you use it within it's design parameters and keep the distance to 350 yds or less, you should have a lot of fun hitting anything you can see with it pretty well.

I've had the 18" M1a's on a few occasions and sold both of them to my regret. I prefer not to go below the 18" tubes myself.

Brownie

[Dave James]

Although i love some of the better bullpups out there, I find for general usage they are a waste of time, unless you do as the Brit's and mandate that every one is right handed.

I am intrigued by the kel-tec 308 and the H&K model with forward ejection of spent rounds, but both appear to be a tad bulky

[Thunder]

Brownie & Dave:

Appreciate your responses. Back to the Socom. Thank you.

[DocH]

Interesting about the bullpups and the close range usage comment that Brownie made. I've only owned one bullpup design in my life.It was a Valmet in .223. I used it on,I believe,two drug raids,then loaned it to our lone undercover drug guy and let him keep it for the duration of my time in that department.
The sights were offset,canted out to the port side at about 45 degree angle.Always seemed weird to me,although it was a good shooter and very reliable.
I stopped using it as I discovered that in the close confines of entering a darkened house or mobile home,I felt much more comfortable with my customized Mod. 629 on my hip as a back up and my Colt .45 auto in my hands.

[Brownie]

Thunder,

Don't know where Oro valley is, but if it's within 100 miles of Phoenix, perhaps we can get together for some long distance shooting with the rifles one day in the future.