The Garage

[mercop]

You are asked by a friend of family member to take them to the hospital for outpatient surgery on their leg. Whey you leave they will be on crutches.

As you pull into the parking garage of course it is full and you are forced to park on the second to last level. You exit your car making sure to put the parking ticket in your pocket before taking the elevator down to ground level. As you and your friend exit the garage a disheveled man walks up with his hands in his pocket and begins to approach you. In reaction you put your hand up and say “stay back”. He says he just wants a dollar. You tell him no and he walks away shaking his head and you hear him mutter “*******.”

Your friend's surgery takes longer than expected and when you are done it is dark out. You assist your friend now on crutches out the door and across the street onto the elevator. The once full parking lot is now pretty empty.

You get to your car and open the passenger side door for your friend and start helping him swing his legs in. You hear footsteps behind you and turn around to see the same man from the morning coming around the back of an SUV parked next to you. He has something in his hand. He is only feet away; you can’t back up since your friend in sitting in the car right behind you. There is no time to deploy you gun/knife so you lunge forward and close the few feet of distance and then you feel a burning sensation, he has sprayed you with OC. You now have both of your hands on him….but you cannot open your eyes. What do you do?

[Bryn Reynolds]

Is this a trick question, Mercop?...lol

[mercop]

Not trick:) Just want to see what some forward thinkers would do. I did think this get more attention then it has.

[David Williams]

Give it a few hours. I promise, we're reading ;)

[Dave James]

Rip his throat out!

[Guantes]

I'll bite.

Number one, why are you making your friend walk across the street and up an elevator and out to the car right after a surgery. You leave him at the hospital door, go and get the car and pick him up.

Number two, approaching my veh in the dark in a near empty parking lot I am going to be paying attention to a veh parked next to mine.

Number three, I don't know that I like lunging at someone with something in his hand that I don't know what it is. Seems like a good way to get stuck. Without my friend as an obstruction I am free to move, draw and confront the threat as necessary.

[David Williams]

Lots of stuff that made sense...

My thoughts exactly...I'm glad someone else said it ;)

But when all else fails, I love a guy who just gets down to business:
Rip his throat out!

I think DJ is feeling a bit froggy today. :D

[Brownie]

Yup,

Go get the car and pick him up at the hospitals main entrance. No way I'm taking an infirmed friend on crutches through the paces of hobbling further than he has to. More likely, if I suggested that my friend make the trip on crutches that far, he'd probably have some choice words about my insenstivity to his situation to begin with as a friend.

For the sake of the questioned scenario, "You hear footsteps behind you and turn around to see the same man from the morning coming around the back of an SUV parked next to you."

He's at the back of the SUV when I spot the same guy? I draw immediately. He sprays, he gets shot. Can't miss at that distance. I don't care what his intentions are, he gets drawn on. There's no way I can't draw even if HE lunges at me and not shoot him at contact distance by blading and defending with the off hand.

Worse yet, he could have a gun, or knife. I'm drawing the gun one way or another unless he has me bagged and tagged before he gets muzzled [ very unlikely from the distance given in the scenario ].

I like DJ's answer. Something similiar ran through my mind initially when I read You now have both of your hands on him, but my thought was break his friggin neck Both DJ's answer and my own initial thought get the same results and are only three inches apart physically :D

[David Williams]

Both DJ's answer and my own initial thought get the same results and are only three inches apart physically :D

Perhaps...but DJ was so much more eloquent!

[Brownie]

Perhaps...but DJ was so much more eloquent!

and DJ's answer is likely faster to end it to boot Dave:cool:

[Guantes]

I can live with breaking his neck. As to ripping out his throat out, I would rather get his blood and other secretions on my bullets rather than my hands. Of course if I had my gloves on I could live with that also. :cool:

[mercop]

I realize that most of us would make better decisions. What I want to see was what folks would do if they were blinded, sucking air and had both hands on a bad guy they could not see. I have been in this situation several times, not the BG spraying me but another officers. One time a rookie sprayed a woman sitting on a couch next to a fan:(. Everytime my reaction was to do my best to pin their arms at the side by holding them below the elbow. Of course this was easier when another officer was providing wall to wall counseling and I new more troops were coming.

[Guantes]

I have been in the same situation, not with OC, IIRC we had CN. My response was to take a Gonzee (sap) to them (BG).

[JMusic]

Well lets pretend all happens in mercops situation here. My first impulse would be to drive in and knee. I would try to quickly incompacitate and escape. I wouldn't try to wrap up. I think in this situation distance actually is your friend. I never liked closing on someone at night face to face. Too many bad things can happen, unless of course you rip their throat out.:p :D


Jim

[David Williams]

I realize that most of us would make better decisions.
Ah, then the sequence of decisions that led to the central idea should be assumed. Not picking on your post, but I think that anything explicitly stated in the scenario is on the table to be critiqued. By contrast, if we imply that the scenario occurs regardless then the preceding decisions are off-limits.

What I want to see was what folks would do if they were blinded, sucking air and had both hands on a bad guy they could not see.
Unfortunately, unless people have had to subdue someone while sporting a face full of mace - or worse yet, OC - then they're just not going to be able to relate.
I've run several OC quals, and it's quite easy to say that we would apply this or that technique...but in my experience people tend to freak out those first few critical seconds after getting hit.

[Brownie]

Dave makes a good point on people who haven't been sprayed not really knowing what they might do. I'd think "panic" would be more like it, not "freak" as Dave mentions, but his freak could very well be caused by the panic.

If you can't breathe for whatever reason like having been choked out to the point of almost going out, you'll understand:D

Back around 83, a few of us were doing choke outs after a particularly good range session with the pistols in the sandpits. I would not tap out until I was going blackout phase and seeing the white lights:rolleyes: Three hours later while getting out of a chair and standing up, I blanked out and fell backwards hitting the back of my head. Woke up to people standing over me asking if I was okay. Blood coming from the right ear, severe concussion from hitting my head on the stone floor, laid there awhile and then got up and took the rest of the day in bed.

Good thing I've taken the mandatory hits of OC while in the academy:D You can fight through it, it's a matter of getting mad and mentally focusing in seriously hurting the SOB who sprayed you post haste.

[JMusic]

Good points DW and though my responce was in jest it was based on the fact that you are blinded and at diminished strength. When in this position you have very few options. My thoughts are to get away from the attack. Also face to face confrontations are very vulnerable to leg and feet attacks if you are so inclined. Keep your blows low. If you have gripped the opponent with both hands pull while driving with a knee is a very easy hard blow to deliver, allowing time to recoupe or escape.

Jim

[Brownie]

Jim,

If I've got my hands on him, I'm going to be behind him pretty quick. Thats when he gets his neck broken;)

[mercop]

Little background. I frequent a few different forums and have waged some jihad against people relying on OC. I would say that it is the most common thing carried to make people fail safe. If you are going to carry it then you should be hit with it so you know how you will react. I have also been outspoken against folks who have no open hand skills or even thoughts to back up guns and knives. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

[JMusic]

Exactly, when in the situation described you are going to default to what you are best at. As you know I like to use my feet some. I also have personally witnessed some of your choke holds. No thanks to either.:cool:

Jim

[Brownie]

:eek: :eek: :D :D

[Brownie]

Mercop,

Your thread has brought some spirited discussion already and varying thought processes from members, thats always a good thing. Even people who have looked and not posted have a chance to decide what course of action might be best for them.

Like Jim mentioned, you'll go with what you know and feel comfortable with. I always relate the mindset like this: I'm like the hot pot belly stove, I give warmth from very close, touch me and you get burned. I'm pretty comfortable working in close:cool:

[David Williams]

Dave makes a good point on people who haven't been sprayed not really knowing what they might do. I'd think "panic" would be more like it, not "freak" as Dave mentions, but his freak could very well be caused by the panic.

No, panic is the better description. Those moments when people can't act, think, or decide because they've allowed the OC to get inside their Loop.

[Brownie]

Not only that, but you need to be prepared to follow on that spraying with a beat down.

hoo ahhh Dave, I like that thought process. I get sprayed, I get violently angry like someone touched a switch that set off the devil himself [ as in "the devil made me do it" ] One day the mind will be willing and the body won't be able to engage, but that won't likely be tomorrow:o

[mercop]

It brings the fight out in me too since I am damn near allergic.

[Guantes]

I think that part of the problem with chemical deterrents is that many who choose them are either inwilling or unable, due to lack of training or infirmities, to go hands on. For that reason, whether they get sprayed or not has little effect on their hand 2 hand capabilities, which are basically nonexistent.

On the other hand, those with hand 2 hand capabilities most often see the chemical agents as just deterrents or a means to buy a second or two in time. These are the ones who benefit from being exposed to the effects and being able to function through them.

I don't like being touched physically or otherwise and respond accordingly.

[Brownie]

I don't like being touched physically or otherwise and respond accordingly.

Thats very subtle sir.

[Guantes]

Why thank you sir, it reflects my mellow nature. :D

[Dave James]

Well sense he said I was sprayed in the eyes that was my first thought,,Second was to turn him into a human Popsicle and stuff a crutch up his ass.

Two things will send me into over rage spitting on me and placing your hands on me!!

When that happens ,,as I told one gentleman " You better pack a lunch"

[Bryn Reynolds]

he has sprayed you with OC. You now have both of your hands on him….but you cannot open your eyes. What do you do?

The above snippet is why I thought it was a trick question....You CAN open your eyes
ater being hit w/pepper.....although it is the most unatural thing in the world to do so. Hardcore FOF training after being exposed will help you realize that you can fight, move, shoot,etc. through it.

I've been through many cans and have been sprayed myself quite a bit.

Nothing worse when you and a partner have the BG on the ground under control cuffing him and some "helpful" back up
arrives and while charging in like Kool-Aid Man sprays all three of you like that is a can of Silly String he is holding!:eek:

Ok, to answer the question then: win.

[JMusic]

I'd have to disagree with the nothing worse comment BR. How about when the dumbass's sit on their can inside the car?:p :eek:


J:eek: im

[Bryn Reynolds]

Oh yeah....I've heard of that happening. too!

(On a side note, I remember years ago we used to get silly with this stuff: inside a buddy's car vents, inside the rim of his Stetson, door knobs...

[JMusic]

Good ole days!:p :D I shouldn't say this but iI will. My favorite was spraying it on a wrag then wiping it on door handles, steering wheel, mike, etc. Good way to win friends and influence people.:)


Jim

[mercop]

Spray some in a blown up zip lock. Put a newspaper or magazine over it. When they sit on it..........

[Bryn Reynolds]

An atomic NBC Whoppie-Cushion!

(God, I hope my guys don't read your post....)

[David Williams]

Spray some in a blown up zip lock. Put a newspaper or magazine over it. When they sit on it..........
You're a bad, bad man.

On a more serious note, my favorite recipe for OC quals is as follows:

1. Get sprayed in the face while holding your eyes open. Yes, you're still going to shut them, but only a fraction of a second slower...which makes all the difference in the world.

2. Turn around and fight your way through three guys in red suits. We're looking for clean and effective techniques here, not simply flailing away. Hand cuff/flex-cuff the last one.

3. Run the (insert your favorite type here) obstacle course.

4. Run over to the pistol range, load your weapon (preferably condition 4 to condition 1) , perform shooting drill that requires both movement and clarity of thought. Throw in a reload, recovery drill, and some other stuff that forces the student to process information and act on it.

5. Once cleared by range officer, go wash your face off and stand in front of the big fan.

Because of safety concerns, I've only been able to get clearance to run this drill once - and that was in the Corps. I had Corpsmen on hand, and the pistol drills happened under the very watchful eye of a range officer who was basically your shadow until you cleared your weapon. I have hopes of seeing something like this on the training side one day...but we'll see if I ever get a dept. to sign off on it.

After completing this, there is absolutely no doubt in the student's mind that he/she can still function, see, and think after a face full of pepper.

[mercop]

Let me name the 10 people in my dept that I would do that with:) Great drill though. It would kill me. I hate OC and it hates me.

[KenpoTex]

regarding the initial scenario...

If I've already got both hands on him, I'd probably try to clinch and just start throwing knees. Also, if I've clinched, I can let go with one hand to elbow, attack the throat, throw palm-heels to the chin, etc. Controlling his head with one hand allows me a frame of reference to know where my targets are.
We used to spend quite a bit of time having to grapple or fight blindfolded so that we could get used to feeling our opponents position and movement as opposed to relying on our sight.

anyhow...after beating on him until he "softens up" a litte (or after a couple of seconds when I can get my eyes open for a sec), I'd probably either take him down and stomp on him (while drawing a weapon), or go for a choke/neck-crank.