Thoughts on the Gunting / LLC

[mercop]

Not thoughts on Bram but what do you think of the knife and system?

[Brownie]

I doubt many have heard of him; know who he is, or know of the Gunting knife here Mercop.

My impression of the knife and it's use mirrors my impression of the originator. Where you asked for no thoughts on Bram, I'll leave it at that.

I haven't heard his name or the knife mentioned in quite some time. Are you privy to the real story behind how the knife design came to exist?

[Dave James]

I don't much about knifes are their workings ,,but just looking at the blade it never made any sense to me.

[mercop]

Brownie, as you well know I spend a lot of time on the USN and Blade Forums. A while back on BF a discussion was started on the LLC Gunting where I put my $.02 in. Later that night I got a few phone calls from legitimate operators who like and use the Gunting. I guess my comments got some peoples panties in a bunch and they felt compelled to contact me. One at least prior to my post was not a BF member. For some reason I guess they thought my opionion mattered.

What I know of the evolution of the Gunting concept I got from Mike Sastre so I am sure you know what I know.

Just interested if some of those in the think tank here saw something in the knife or the system that eluded me.

[Brownie]

Yes sir, Mike is up to speed on the history on that subject. :D

Just interested if some of those in the think tank here saw something in the knife or the system that eluded me.

I've seen it in use from a few others who were listed instructors in the "system", I didn't see anything of interest. I've found most who are sold on the "way" of that knife are fanatical in their quest to get others to be like minded for some reason.

[mercop]

It started over some of the believers saying that it is in use by some Spec Ops units that of course could not be identified because of OPSEC/PERSEC. I stated that because someone on a team carries something does not mean that it is and issued or authorized item and that because something is issued or authorized does not mean the troops like carrying it.

Where the **** hit the fan was when they said that it was in use by some LE agencies. The old MIL OPSEC/PERSEC issue would not work here. I gave my number and asked that I be contacted by any member of an agency that carries or endorses the Gunting. That call never came.

I though the idea of a pocket clip was to carry it in your pocket, not carry it in a holster. There is little you could do to draw more attention to a folding knife IMHO.

[Brownie]

For those who may be wondering what to hell a gunting knife looks like:

Picture taken from the Spyderco website:

[kevininstructor]

Below are pictures of the current generation of the LLC/Gunting.

I carry a LLC along with either a Emerson full-size Commander or Emerson Karambit.


http://home.comcast.net/~kevininstructor/knifeImages/LLC_Set.jpg

[Brownie]

Hey Kevin,

Aren't you a certed instructor with the Gunting?

Regarding the Emerson K, do you have any reservations on the liner lock on that type of knife failing when you use the spine of the blade to parry, punch into an object?

I'm leary of linerlocks on K's failing under hard use myself and prefer the Tarani folders for their lockback design. I'd be interested on your take on the differing locking systems found on some of the folding K's out there.

I also understand the Gunting is now a compression lock model in it's new guise. I have a Spyie compression lock folder [ forget which model now as I haven't carried folders for three+ years ], it seems secure enough to me, certainly safer than a linerlock-------your impression and experiences if you don't mind?

[kevininstructor]

Hey Kevin,

Aren't you a certed instructor with the Gunting?

Regarding the Emerson K, do you have any reservations on the liner lock on that type of knife failing when you use the spine of the blade to parry, punch into an object?

I'm leary of linerlocks on K's failing under hard use myself and prefer the Tarani folders for their lockback design. I'd be interested on your take on the differing locking systems found on some of the folding K's out there.

I also understand the Gunting is now a compression lock model in it's new guise. I have a Spyie compression lock folder [ forget which model now as I haven't carried folders for three+ years ], it seems secure enough to me, certainly safer than a linerlock-------your impression and experiences if you don't mind?

Yes I am a LLC/Gunting instructor.

In regards to the Emerson Karambit lock, no because I have tested it several ways. First by punching on a heavy bag with conventional punches with a drone and what Ernie calls the snake bite, never had the lock fail. Also have hammered it onto various hard surfaces.

Same goes for the old style Gunting and the new generation Gunting using a drone testing the same as with the Emerson Karambit.

Can not testify to the Tarani Karambit because I don’t have a drone to test with only a live one.

On a side note about locks, during one of my recent classes I demo'd this test on the above knifes, Benchmade Griptilion drone and Spyderco Endura drones. Two out of six Enduras the lock failed when hammered onto a work bench.

[mercop]

Brownie, I carry a EKI K-bit reaction side in reverse grip. It comes up straight to target in order to allow me to get to another strong hand pistol or knife if I can.

[Brownie]

Thanks for your thoughts and results Kevin.

I've also not been impressed with the Endura lockback. It's not a question of the lock but how that models lock releases too soon [ not enough depth to the locking hook on the blade ].

The Tarani lockback K was specifically designed not to release the blade until the lock is fully compressed. It would be near impossible to hold the knife and have hand/palm pressure release it, the locking hook is cut very deep for that reason.

Mercop,

I remember you mentioning elsewhere you carried one of those. If I remember correctly, you have liked it and it has performed well for you last I knew. My folder K's have bitten me hard a few times, thats all in a days training with the live blade training though.:rolleyes:

I have the Tarani aluminum trainer that I work with on ocassion and I've learned to leave the live blade K alone [ thank god I don't carry folders anymore now ]

[mercop]

Brownie, I don't like waved knives and don't believe in the Kerambit as a system, however the waved EKI Kerambit fits the reaction side role unlike anything else I could find. The only cut I use is the uppercut so all the pressure is keeping the blade open. I also like the fact that I can get to it from any postion and can retain it even with a pistol in my hands.

[Brownie]

I don't like waved knives

I would not carry a waved folder myself. Never have taken to them.

I don't carry the K's, but they are fun to play with and the understanding/knowledge of the K's system of defensive use doesn't hurt.

[kevininstructor]

Yes sir, Mike is up to speed on the history on that subject. :D

Just interested if some of those in the think tank here saw something in the knife or the system that eluded me.

I've seen it in use from a few others who were listed instructors in the "system", I didn't see anything of interest. I've found most who are sold on the "way" of that knife are fanatical in their quest to get others to be like minded for some reason.

I must admit there are plenty of people out there who are fanatical and are seemingly on a quest to get others into the LLC. I see the LLC as a viable tool for some to carry for self-defense use no different then someone carrying a Karambit, Kubaton, gun or baton. Would I categorize myself as fanatical? No but will fully admit to giving the LLC perhaps more time in demonstrations when offering options for tools to carry for self-defense.

[kevininstructor]

I though the idea of a pocket clip was to carry it in your pocket, not carry it in a holster. There is little you could do to draw more attention to a folding knife IMHO.
I fully agree with you, much more attention is drawn from carrying a folder on a belt holster which openly exposes the knife, any knife for that matter. Carrying a knife clipped to the pocket is common place in many areas and as so will not draw undue attention. Carrying the LLC in a open belt holster is going to draw much more attention then most any other knife out there. The best method for carrying in a belt holster is if the person wears a cover garment. Please note that the Gunting/LLC belt holster is a break-away design were forward motion will allow the LLC to move horizontally out of the holster. My mode of carry is clipped to the back right pocket of my 5.11's.

[BillinPittsburgh]

First post here, and I see a few familiar people.

Re: waved knives: I have found that the Emerson waves are a bit too small to open reliably, and will destroy pants pockets after relatively few openings. However, the Emerson-licensed Spyderco waves, which are larger, are much more dependable and much gentler on clothing. Lately there is always a waved Spyderco Delica or Endura in my pocket (although previous comments in this thread about lock strength will be taken into consideration). I have spent a lot of time practicing with thumb-opening knives, and am not convinced that I could do so as quickly and error-free as I would like should the need arise. The Spyderco wave is quite fast and dependable, and if I do mess up the deployment, the blade will almost always be most of the way open, so I can flick my wrist and use blade momentum to lock the knife open.

Re: liner locks. Two of the three Emerson liner locking knives I own wore to the point that I can close the knife without touching the locking bar, without serious hard use, but with repeated opening and closing. Emerson offered to repair the knives for no more than the cost of return shipping, but I have not yet bothered to send the knives in.

Now I'll bite on the original question of the Gunting:

Let me start out by saying that my familiarity with the use of this knife is very limited. I have never taken a class in its use and make no claims to having a full understanding of its use. There is a good possibility that I will take such a class in the future.

I share the concern of many that when you draw a knife, you are likely to be held to the legal standards applicable to deadly force regardless of whether you use the knife in a deadly manner or not. So, I wouldn't treat the Gunting differently than other knives: it stays put unless deadly force is called for, and empty hand skills or other tools will be relied upon if a lower level of force is called for.

However, keeping in mind that I may not have time to open a knife when the time comes to use it, I like the idea of a knife that is designed in such a way that I can do damage with the knife closed, or do damage while opening the knife at the same time.

I like the handle design on the newer models from both a security and ergonomic standpoint.

I have grown comfortable that a knife clipped to my pocket will draw little or no attention. However, I am still a bit uncomfortable with the degree to which the Gunting would stick out of a pocket. Now that Spyderco has licensed use of the wave opening system, I think they may have missed the opportunity to wave open this knife by mounting the clip for tip-up carry. Then again, I realize that this may defeat part of the original purpose of the knife.

I like the idea that the original Gunting had a 3" blade: long enough to be effective and short enough to be legal in the vast majority of the US (except, for example, Boston and a few localities in Ohio) and many foreign countries.

[mercop]

Kevin, how do you use the "horn" when the knife is closed without risking it opening when you don't want it to?

Using a closed folder as a hammer fist is something I believe in and teach. While doing so your hand is wrapped around the blade and will not allow it open.

The Waved Endura trainers have not faired well in the Folder into the Fight drill since they require reward movement unless set up for reaction side carry.

Bill, good to see you here.

[Brownie]

Good first post Bill,

Welcome to the forum.

[kevininstructor]

Kevin, how do you use the "horn" when the knife is closed without risking it opening when you don't want it to?

Using a closed folder as a hammer fist is something I believe in and teach. While doing so your hand is wrapped around the blade and will not allow it open.

George, as you already specified, the hand must wrap around the handle and blade otherwise the operator runs the risk of opening the knife.

[kevininstructor]

I have grown comfortable that a knife clipped to my pocket will draw little or no attention. However, I am still a bit uncomfortable with the degree to which the Gunting would stick out of a pocket. Now that Spyderco has licensed use of the wave opening system, I think they may have missed the opportunity to wave open this knife by mounting the clip for tip-up carry. Then again, I realize that this may defeat part of the original purpose of the knife.


Greetings Bill

When I originally looked at the Gunting without any knowledge of it's design I didn't like how high the tool protuded out of the pocket then realized why.

The reason for the Gunting riding high is to acquire it quickly in the closed position and bring it into a defensive posture.

This is done by placing your hand slightly behind the tool with thumb spread out from your other fingers and then with a forward motion grasp the Gunting in a solid grip which brings it into instant readiness.

In regards to calling attention, I have more people asking me something like "what kind of tool is that?" not "what kind of knife is that?" although I do not discount people spot welding their eyes on it and not saying anything too.

[BillinPittsburgh]

Thanks, guys.

Kevin, thanks for your comments on the draw. My career as a patent attorney often puts me in environments where I do not want someone staring at my pocket wondering what is there, although other clip-style knives have not been an issue in business casual offices.

Mercop, when you say reaction side carry, are you referring to a set up that would allow a forward motion to wave open the knife into reverse grip? Would a shorter blade make a difference with the rearward movement?

Brownie, I have read much interesting material here and also read two totally unrelated good reviews of your classes on other forums.

[Brownie]

Bill,

Good to hear you've enjoyed the forum and have found materials worth reading here. Thanks for your thoughts.

I'll be coming back to Easton, Pa sometime this spring [ about an hour north of Philly ], and if you are interested in the training, keep an eye on the training announcments section for dates to be announced.

Stay sharp

[kevininstructor]

Keeping in the sprit of the thread I am offering a basic LLC class in Salem Oregon next month, details may be found here http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9569#post9569

Sometime this summer I will be in Pennsylvania and if possible would like to visit those of you residing in this area and if interested put on a LLC/Gunting class in any near by state. Philly town is where my family lives.

[mercop]

Easton PA huh, might just meet you after knowing you all these years Brownie. I know there is something wrong with you if you hang out with Mike Sastre.

[Brownie]

I know there is something wrong with you if you hang out with Mike Sastre.
:D

Look forward to it Mercop :cool:

[Mike Sastre]

I just love it when Mercop talks dirty like that!! :)