Folder into the Fight Drill

[mercop]

Those of you who carry a folder for defensive puposes may be interested in this drill. We have now done all kinds of people from people with no training, to people with a lot of training to special operations troops.

With eye protection, a mouth piece and a training folder in your carry postion of choice.

Station #1- on the whistle you Panic Push another student (Panic Push is a one or two hand push up and under the chest intended to knock a bag guy bay on his hells preventing forward movement, causing him to loose sight of you for a second and his hands come out to the side exposing weapons).

Station #2- you grab a hold of two sticks being held by another student and pump back and forth for about 30-45 seconds to get the blood pressure up. You will also start to loose your fine/complex motor skills.

Station #3- on the whistle you are attacked by another student wearing boxing gloves who hammer fists you about the head and shoulders. You have to get your folder out of your pocket, get it open and get a cut or stab in on your attacker.

Station #4- you drop the knife and have to hold down another student who is passivly resisting on his stomach for 30-45 seconds.


The FTF drill can be changed in several ways.

Increase station times.
Use a fixed blade trainer or Airsoff/Sims gun.
Reduce the light, increase the noise.
Blast of OC into your face between stations 3 and 4.
Student has to tap out opponent in station #4.
Wear head gear and go for more head impact.

[Brownie]

I carry a straight blade everyday these days:D That said, your drills could be used with accessing a straight as well.

The drills described put people under pressure in accessing their weapon of choice. Everything that puts pressure on you to perform is going to show weaknesses in the system you use with various tools.

It's FoF with a folder in lieu of a gun. Thats a good thing to experience and understand in the real world:cool:

[Mike Sastre]

Having watched at least four different groups go through the Folder Into The fight Drill, I've yet to see someone access their knives smoothly and with anything near the speed and ease they expected. At least half fail to open first try or completely fly out of the hands. Everyone should do this drill for their own education. Great eye opener!!

[mercop]

While down training AFSOC a few weeks back we had them in full kit with a training knife jammed where ever they choose too. I managed some disarms and slowed them all down. They were a little frustrated. We have come up with some ideas to how would you say..........increase the training value.

[Robert Desrosiers]

Great drill. Probably one of the reasons I have switched over to a fixed blade utilizing the Appendix position.



Bob

[mercop]

Great minds think alike. Check your PMs.

[7677]

I might be little bit slow here but I'm failing to see how these drills have any real world application?

I understand loss of motor skills, and showing a student the difficulties of employing a folder, etc. but the sticking point and what I have to ask why would you attempt or advocate to students to draw a knife, especially a folder, when you should be fighting? If someone is close enough to punch, then they are close enough to jam any weapon during the draw.

One has to deal with problem at hand first before you attempt to employ a weapon. Drills should teach student the difficulties yet provide them with a solution to overcome said difficulties.

[Mike Sastre]

I might be little bit slow here but I'm failing to see how these drills have any real world application?

I understand loss of motor skills, and showing a student the difficulties of employing a folder, etc. but the sticking point and what I have to ask why would you attempt or advocate to students to draw a knife, especially a folder, when you should be fighting? If someone is close enough to punch, then they are close enough to jam any weapon during the draw.

One has to deal with problem at hand first before you attempt to employ a weapon. Drills should teach student the difficulties yet provide them with a solution to overcome said difficulties.

That is the exact point of doing the drill. Showing the student who thinks his SD tool is the total solution, that it'll probably start hands only, and hands skills will be how you create the window to use your tool of choice.

[7677]

That is the exact point of doing the drill. Showing the student who thinks his SD tool is the total solution, that it'll probably start hands only, and hands skills will be how you create the window to use your tool of choice.

This leads to my next point...why would I teach someone to go for a knife in the middle of a fight even if they could? A fist fight is a fist fight and to introduce a knife to the fight without mitigating factors such as size and number of combatives or the student feared for his life would be unjustified.

Additionally, if I need my knife in a hurry is going to be in a knife on knife fight and I doubt someone is going to be pushing me or hammer fisting me in the head in this type of situation. Which is the point of my post, training has to be in line with what you are trying to teach because students pick up more from these types of drills then you think. Just look at the direction the Tueller drill has taken.

IMHO, your knife is the same as your firearm you have to be able to draw your and employ your weapon in a extremely fast manner rather it be standing moving and/or fighting and IMHO folder do not lend themselves to this type of fighting and one of the reasons I carry a fixed blade in addition to my firearms when I fly.

This drill is a step in the right direction my only point is in oder to expose a weakness in someone's training the out come of the drill has to be inline with the manner it will be employed and it must teach the student the solution to solve the problem.

In closing, proper training eliminates these type of drill because drills like these are to correct bad habits and this drill in particular solves one problem but creates a whole new one. I believe with a little tweaking this drill has real world application.

[mercop]

We have never had any negative feedback on the drill. The reason they draw a folder is because it is an edged weapons course. In a pistol course we do it with air soft pistols.

As Mike can attest to we have done it with beginners and folks who hold various certifications. What did they all have in common at least the first time? They all got stuck on the getting the weapon out and just tried to push the bad man away with one hand.

As far as knife on knife aka the myth of the duel, we seldom train for it since again it is not much more than a legend at least in the US. If I can choose a weapon against a knife it will be a stick. If you take two people with equal training and give one a knife and one a stick, the stick will win 9 times out of 10.

As far as being able to justitfy force, that is part of all my courses and I have put together quite a cadre of folks to teach it from experience not from a book since the have been on both sides of the table during a deadly force investigation.

I would be pleased to have anyone here attend a course and try the FTF. I believe Mike is up to four courses.

[7677]

We have never had any negative feedback on the drill. The reason they draw a folder is because it is an edged weapons course. In a pistol course we do it with air soft pistols.

As Mike can attest to we have done it with beginners and folks who hold various certifications. What did they all have in common at least the first time? They all got stuck on the getting the weapon out and just tried to push the bad man away with one hand.

As far as knife on knife aka the myth of the duel, we seldom train for it since again it is not much more than a legend at least in the US. If I can choose a weapon against a knife it will be a stick. If you take two people with equal training and give one a knife and one a stick, the stick will win 9 times out of 10.

As far as being able to justitfy force, that is part of all my courses and I have put together quite a cadre of folks to teach it from experience not from a book since the have been on both sides of the table during a deadly force investigation.

I would be pleased to have anyone here attend a course and try the FTF. I believe Mike is up to four courses.

Mercop,
We have not been introduced so allow me to introduce myself, I'm the co-owner of this site and the reason this forum was started was to have a place to discuss techniques and how to best apply them. Especially ones that were not popular with the main stream gurus. Moreover, this is a place where professionals can go to share their techniques and get feed back from other like minded individuals on how to improve them. So, just because you have not received any negative feed back does not mean your program is perfect and there are no improvements that can be made to your program. So, when we ask question it is to be sure we understand the message you are attempting to convey.

As far as knife on knife aka the myth of the duel, we seldom train for it since again it is not much more than a legend at least in the US. Brownie and I put together ITFTS system which included knife, stick, and H2H and before that we taught knife and stick together at Sightless at Tucson. I also have close to twenty years of military and law enforcement experience in which seven years was spent working patrol in Dallas, Texas. So, I can assure you that everyone carries a knife there and they are used a lot especially in the Hispanic areas where fist fights commonly escalate into knife fights by one or more parties. The joke in my sector was that if I had a dime for every stabbing call I was dispatched on Bill Gates would be the second richest man in America.

Do not take it personal when questions are asked and you are not getting negative feed back but questions based on what has been posted. I see the need for what you are trying to accomplish however I'm not sure if I agree with your method at this point and time.

[mercop]

No worries, I agree that many forums are nothing more than mutual masturbation sessions. If everyone agrees than nobody is thinking. Much of my stuff would be considered by many to be out the box like a lot of things here.

My only point about no other negative comments was that I had just never received any. My system perfect, hardly. There are people reading this that have forgotten more than I will ever know. I have passion for what I do and evidence everything I teach in front of any crowd that gathers. I am how would you say, passionate about this stuff since today may be our last training day.

I apoligize for seeming defensive. I look forward to meeting you and Brownie in person and aprpeciate you allowing to share here.