Crouching

[evan1293]

Competition shooters will generally tell you that crouching burns time, but in a defensive setting is the sacrafice of time worth it in order to stay low and present a smaller target to your adversary / increase stability? I've always heard that you should always draw from the position you plan to fire from, not draw and move into a firing position which burns time in excessive movement and causes slower target aquisition. Does this hold true in the fighting realm?

[Brownie]

evan1293,

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are asking here. Can you elaborate further for us?

I've always heard that you should always draw from the position you plan to fire from

My initial thought is draw from the position you find yourself in at the moment you decide you need to use deadly force, and train to be able to shoot from any position [ in other words, not train to a specific stance or firing platform to begin with ].

[evan1293]

I've always heard that you should always draw from the position you plan to fire from

What I mean to say is that in competitions like IDPA or IPSC you start a stage generally squared up to the targets and standing somewhat erect. They say you should not crouch as you draw because there is too much moving which kills time. You should only be moving the gun into your line of sight and then engage.

I know in a defensive situation your first response should be to move off the X but should you also squat down as you draw to present less of a target. Doing so may cause a .10 of a second or so but is that time lost worth it?

[Brownie]

evan1293,

Read this thread on Jelly Bryce if you haven't seen it.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1508

He had a .40 drawstroke to first shot, practiced for 8 hours at a time in the mirror, it worked for him and others in the real world.

Here's a picture of the stance Bryce drew into [ the short guy in the photo ] and perfected while becoming a legendary lawman with a gun. Bill Jordan [ also a legendary modern day gunfighter who won gunfights on the streets while a border agent ] is also seen in his stance while Rex Applegate's stance was a "croutch" as well.

It's my understanding that Mr. Bryce's opinion was that you should balance forward and crouch as he is shown so that if you were hit, your momentum kept you on your feet, not knocked off balance. The croutch didn't have much to do with making yourself a smaller target, per se.

I don't bring the gun to line of sight to shoot unless I need a very precise shot, the distance is considerable and I have the time to do so. In a reactive defensive situation at commonly encountered SD distances, it's unnecessary.

[evan1293]

Brownie, thanks for that link! That was very interesting. Some of Bryce's quotes on sidestepping the line of fire and moving foward are things I hear said today as if they are new ideas. This gentleman had some astonishing physical abilities which coupled with his dedication to practicing his pistol craft, made him quite remarkable.

Thanks again :)

[Brownie]

evan1293,

If we look at history of the real world modern day gunfighters [ Bryce, Jordan, Askins, etc who all lived to be old men having been in numerous altercations with firearms and "killing others" ], take from their experiences, we'd glean a better way to train for the streets than most training gives people today.

Some of Bryce's quotes on sidestepping the line of fire and moving foward are things I hear said today as if they are new ideas.

It's being "rediscovered", as more become aware of what has worked in the past and is as valid today as back then. The training community got away from the real world skills employed that were proven effective on the streets for a long time, but the pendulum is swinging back gradually.

Very few trainers have these skill or are imparting old world skills like these men used, but they are out there.

[DocH]

WHAT? You mean we shouldn't use a modified weaver,a two hand hold,and front sight press? BLASPHEMY! :eek: :eek: :D :D

[David Williams]

Something that I think is important here is that people need to be careful when taking IDPA/IPSC rules and applying them to real-life. The translation is not always seamless.

Remember that the purpose of rules is to create a consistent guideline by which to judge performance in a competitive scenario; they are not necessarily there to provide a tactical advantage in a real-world situation.
Additionally, competition shooters are, as in any other sport where the clock is your enemy - always focused on how to bring their times down. I've seen motorcycle racers replace all of the screws/bolts on their bike in order to save 5-10 lbs...which maybe translates to 1/10th of a second on a qualifying time. At the level which most people perform, going to such degrees for 1/10th of a second is simply a waste of time.

Usually, time is better spent on fundamental skills than on trying to shave off that 1/10th of a second by making tactical decisions in advance...decisions that may or may not even work for the situation you may find yourself in.

One thing I like to ask people to think about is to what extent do they advocate crouching? Are we talking a full crouch, knees on the ground - or are we talking the old Jelly Bryce kinda-half crouch?
Most people get shot in the abdomen or the chest. If you're first reaction is to crouch, be aware of how you are choosing to line your body up.

[Dave James]

When training with Mr.Bryce and Col.Askins,,both believed the "crouch" more than likely would be second nature,let a mad hornet pass your ear and see what the body does.

Even moving off of the "X" as its called now would not necessarily stop you from crouching, Its just a matter of dropping the weight to center and balance yourself, even that small move makes for a smaller target.

Also remember those fine old gentlemen Mr.Bryce Col.Askins and Mr.Jordan always believe in going forward /charging the guns when younger.

[steve2267]

Also remember those fine old gentlemen Mr.Bryce Col.Askins and Mr.Jordan always believe in going forward /charging the guns when younger.

DJ, did they charge directly towards the guns, or more of on an oblique? Or was it situation dependent -- just as long as you were going forward? Lastly... regarding context... at what sort of ranges were they advocating charging? Were they talking 7 yards or less? 10 yards? 50 yards? Specifically, I could see charging from 7 yards or maybe 10... but charging from 50 yards, for example, seems a bit suicidal -- better to head for cover at such long ranges (unless no cover is to be had I suppose -- but even the, maybe going prone and returning fire is better?)

[David Williams]

It was more of a mindset than a technique.

[Dave James]

Mostly thry believed and taught me to go from 15 yards in,, IF!!!! there was a need, and NEED was the big question, Mr.Bryce was fond of saying "You root , you die"

remember they where brought up in a time that dictated , their actions,,it was much better to die going forward,with your boots on then backing down as a coward would.

Mr.Bryce and Askins again taught me that shooting and moving was good, angles where thrown in but not stressed, both said "Kid you'll figure it out,when needed"

Askins and Jordan both told me about the blind corners and pushing away from things as needed.

[evan1293]

Guys, Im finding this very helpful....Thanks!