How far?

[steve2267]

How far do you think is a realistic maximum range at which one should train and be prepared to engage a perp with your EDC gun? 20 yds? 25? 30? 50? 100? 200?

As most of you are probably aware, we're having a bit of excitement here in Colorado today: two separate shootings about 70 miles and twelve hours apart, multiple wounded, several killed. In the second shooting, initial reports have the perp starting to shoot people outside in the parking lot. This occurred at a large church outside Colorado Springs. The terrain is flat and open. You could easily see all the way across the (large) parking lot, and I can imagine being able to see the shooter from 100-200 yards away. Initial reports have the gunman at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs wearing a "tactical helmet and body armor" and may have had a rifle. So, outside in a parking lot, I could see a shot being possible anywhere from 50-200 yards.

In the Von Maur (sp?) shooting in Omaha a few days ago, one (alleged) eyewitness report states that he had a clear 30-40 yard profile shot at the perp, and he would have taken it... if he had a gun.

So, what distance do you think we should train for and be prepared to take shots at? I'm not advocating spending a lot of time on this long distance shooting with sidearms, but perhaps a few magazines out of a range training session.

[David Williams]

I'm not convinced practicing to hit +100m targets with an EDC gun is practical. The chances for a miss are substantial at that range, considering that BG will most likely not be sitting there waiting for someone to shoot him and that most people's EDC is a compact/sub-compact of some sort.
Now some people can ding +100m targets all day long, and if you're that shooter then more power to you... however, as the chances for a miss increase then you have to consider the risks...remember, we are responsible for every round that leaves our weapons regardless of intent.
Personally, at distances of +100m, my suggestion is to either move toward the thread and into a better position from which to engage, maneuver to a better protected position, or wait it out where you're at. As with all things, situation dictates.

As for your question "at what distances should we be prepared to take shots" - my answer is that you should be prepared to take shots as far out as you can reliably get a hit. It's up to you and your individual abilities. If you know[/b] you can cleanly make that 150m shot with your EDC, then [I]take it. Me? Distance shooting with a handgun is not one of my strong points, so I'm going to look for another opportunity.

Additionally, while I do think that it's important to think through and even practice for situations like these, the majority of training needs to stay focused on that close-in fight. The chances of having to even make a decision on engaging someone at +100m is still very remote, today's events notwithstanding.

[steve2267]

Additionally, while I do think that it's important to think through and even practice for situations like these, the majority of training needs to stay focused on that close-in fight. The chances of having to even make a decision on engaging someone at +100m is still very remote, today's events notwithstanding.
I agree wholeheartedly and was not suggesting otherwise. However, this week we had a mall shooting where one witness said he had a clear profile shot at a perp who was not moving much (more intent on gunning down innocents) at a distance of 30-40 (maybe 50) yards. Then today a shooting that started in a large parking lot outside a church. Someone in the parking lot may have had an opportunity to engage at 50+ yards.

I am arguing that we should not neglect long range shooting training. I think we should train to be able to take a 50yd shot. 50yd is pushing it, but I think doable. 25yards certainly. For me personally... parking lot... 100 yards, non-moving target actively shooting people (i.e. I can see what they are doing)... is doable, but getting pretty much to the limit of my ability with a 4" 1911.

[Brownie]

50 meters is easily accomlished with a pistol by most anyone who has some time on their weapons and the time to take the shot. Whether they can make that shot under duress/stress reliably is another question that will always remain until you are put into that position and decide to try it. So you can make the shot on the square range, better be able to know you can be effective on body shots to stop them at that distance, and I don't think I want to chance it unless forced to.

25 meters is a no brainer, head shots all day long, so one moving about slowly [ not running ] could easily be given multiple body shots.

100 meters out? Find a safe place and lay low, get on the cell, call it in to 911 and stay on the phone, giving them real time minute witness details they can use to get emergency response [ ER [ on scene safely [ as to their direction of entry to the area and who they are responding to [ who's the BG by dress, height, appeatance etc ].

I can take a 100 meter shot, but I'm with Dave on his idea that you either move up into a better position [ closer etc ] or hang back and let emergency response handle it. Besides, if you move up covertly [ if possible at all ] by the time you get there, the Po Po's could be getting on scene and what do they see? You sneaking around with a gun, what was that call they were responding to again?:eek: :D

It's not my job to engage at those distances, unless I'm the object of his attention and unless I'm caught out in the open and the only cover is behind my own bullets. It's my job to be a good witness and direct the ER to do a btter job through intel otherwise, not go engaging the BG's.

Steve, with whats been going on in your area, stay to hell out of the malls now, and that includes your wife and the kids. Shop online and never mind worrying about being out at these areas.

Brownie

[steve2267]

This morning I get on the computer only to ready about the church shootings at 12:30am this morning. (I used to drive by that church on my way to/from work when I worked at Sun Microsystems in Broomfield, CO. Not a bad part of town. A very well respected, large, conservative, evangelical church.)

I asked my wife if we were going to church today, as our niece and nephew had had a sleep over at our house. She said no, and I relaxed slightly. I knew I would have been armed (as I always am), and extra alert (continually scanning the foyer / entrances / exit -- heck may have specifically chosen to sit elswhere to ensure a good vantage point) had we gone.

Then early afternoon I hear about the Colorado Springs shootings. I have no proof whatsoever, but dollars to donuts, my donuts are on the shooter being the same. My church is roughly halfway between the two shooting sites, but is much smaller than either Faith Bible Chapel (Arvada) or New Life Church (Colo Spgs). Still, as you say, you never know.

If my time ever comes, I only pray that 1) my family survives and 2) I acquit myself well. Bonus points (major bonus points) if I survive as well.

[steve2267]

This is probably just some freak occurence... but...

Similar descriptions of the shooters at both churches: white guy, twenties. Earlier shooting said perp may have had glasses, may have had a beard, did wear a skull cap, dark coat. I think the earlier shooting they said about 6', but I'm not 100% sure.

Colorado Springs perp: white male, twenties, 6' or so, skinny, black (dark?) trench coat.

I've read several accounts of an explosion immediately preceding the gunfire at New Life Church. Several other reports of suspicious devices, a few reports of improvised explosive devices, one or two mentions of pipe bomb(s).

What's my point? New Life Church in Colorado Springs is one of the largest, most influential evangelical churches (like they send missionaries to muslim countries among all sorts of places) in the United States. Perhaps this is the opening act by AQ and Osama bin Laden? Attack one of the largest US churches, slaughter the Christians in one of the most conservative areas in the American heartland?

Who knows! Time will tell. The times, they are a changin, and not necessarily for the better.

Stay sharp!

[David Williams]

Perhaps this is the opening act by AQ and Osama bin Laden? Attack one of the largest US churches, slaughter the Christians in one of the most conservative areas in the American heartland?

If that was it, then it wouldn't have been in this manner.
10,000 people, all leaving one building, and this dude kills one and wounds 4? Neither organized nor methodical.

[DocH]

Agreed on what DW and Brownie said on the ranges.Colder weather I'm carrying a 5 inch 1911. Each range session I do some 50 yard shots,no problem with this pistol at all and the 1911 triigger.I can hit pretty well at 100 with it but I'm not going to take a shot like that in a public place.
Moving to a more advantageous position is the way to go. Secure cover,but if a 50 yard shot presents itself and somebody is killing innocents,I'm damn sure gonna take a shot I know I can make.

As always,protect yourself and your own first and others second and be a good witness.
As far as routine practice I think 50 yard shots should be included.Need to know your weapon and how you interact with it at those distances,but much farther than that for me is not part of a rouirine session but just the occasional one.