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View Full Version : The "Collapsing Startle Response" aka "Protecting the Core"


Brownie
03-14-2006, 07:15 PM
I first used the term "Startle Response" on the net on 7-12-2004, 12:02 PM in a post on another forum after a defensive edged weapons class I held in NYC the weekend before.

I have used the term since at least 1997 in my defensive edged weapons classes. By the time I was given the role of adjunct defensive edged weapons instructor at S+W's training facility in Springfield, Massachusetts in 1999 I was using the term regularly to describe ones initial reaction to perceived danger.

What is the "startle response"?

In a nutshell, it's the O' sh*t mental feeling one gets and it occurs when they are behind on the reactionary curve and taken by surprise by something that might be as simple as a car backfiring, or a baloon popping, or in the worst cases, possibly being physically attacked without warning/notice either from behind or a frontal assault, or maybe attacked by someone who has just produced a knife or gun from nowhere with no apparent prior intent to harm you, no "preassault bahavioural pattern" detected.

By the time one can say O' sh*t and your brain has the time to comprehend thinking it, it could be too late to prevent physical contact with an aggressor/assailant. It may only take a split second for the brain to think it consciously, but in the time it takes the brain to realize there is potential danger and get the muscles moving in some form of reaction, potentially fatal damage can be taken.

How do people normally react to being startled under perceived imminent danger of taking some type of physical damage? In the same way people who see imminent danger coming like a knife attack, by raising their elbows up and away from the body, extending the one or both forearms out to meet the threat along with the hands with palms facing outward.

Why do people react this way? It most likely is a natural response our ancestors developed in an attempt to keep the danger initially at some greater distance to us if possible. Animals do the same thing if they have limbs. They reach out with their claws extended like cats will do when threatened, in an attempt to keep the danger from getting any closer.

Is our natural response at using our arms and hands something we should be doing to protect ourselves when startled? Does our natural startle response to danger help us or leave us open to fatal damage to the body?

It can go both ways at times, so there is no right answer and it becomes situationally dependant on the circumstances as well as what the immediate danger is [ which we may not be able to recognize before our startle response kicks in subconsciously.

Ever seen photos of a victim who was attacked with a knife? Lots of what are known as "defensive wounds" to the forearms and hands. We use our limbs to protect us from danger, in attempting to keep the danger away from us naturally. It's the natural response damage seen in victims of this nature.

Most will move their arms and elbows away from their body to keep that danger farther away in an attempt to protect the head and body from any damage using their natural startle response.

In unarmed defensive edged weapons training, if we use our natural startle responses to danger, we are giving the aggressor targets of opportunity that are closer to hit [ the outstretched arms and hands ]. At the same time we are opening up the body's core and risk getting nailed where the real immediate life threatening damage occurs. It's obvious in class that if we extend, we take damage to the core more often than not.

If that extension occurs due to our using the body's natural startle responses, and thats a bad thing, the next question would be, what can we do to train that natural reponse of extending out of the startle response.

Good unarmed defensive edged weapons startle [ or otherwise ] responses will make use of the arms and hands to "protect the core" at all times. That requires the mind to ignore the natural response to extend, and instead endeavor to protect the core by collapsing onto itself and keeping the limbs close to the body.

One can train their startle response to use this collapsing upon itself with the forearms and hands staying as close to the body's core as possible [ from the belt to the head ] while under imminent danger and a response to being startled.

In doing so one has accomplished a few things, all beneficial to surviving the first second of an attack. First we protect the body's core immediately with the arms and hands as shields that have to be breached; second we do not give aggressor targets of opportunity [ the hands and arms ], and the third real benefit is that by collapsing/retracting the arms and hands into to the body we have made the attacker have to extend his own arms/hands further which then takes more time to get to us, but at the same time makes the power of the attack when it does connect less effective.

How does it make the power of the attack less effective? I'll use an example I use in classes which is readily apparent to everyone. When you pick up a 5 gallon bucket of paint, do you pick it up with an outstretched arm or do you pick it up and keep the bucket and arm retracted and close to your body? The answer is the latter, and it's obvious now why and it is becuase the arm loses power the further it gets from the body.

So, the power of the attack is less when it reaches us if the aggressor has had to extend his arm further and conversely we retain our power in the arms by keeping them closer to the body at the same time. More power to defend and less power from the attack when and if contact is made. Makes sense right?

It goes against our natural startle responses but it keeps our core better protected from taking damage. Learn the "collapsing startle responses".

The article wasn't written with the intent to explain how the collapsing startle responses are used, the techniques if you will. It was to get people to understand that if they only use their natural startle responses they give the aggressor advantages that are unnecessary.

It doesn't have to be used just against a knife and you'll likely not have time to determine what the aggressors intentions are or what he holds in his hand. It may be just a punch coming in, or something else held in the aggressors hand.

If you don't survive the initial second of the attack, if you didn't protect the core in that startle response of yours and took real damage, then even if your subsequent actions get the aggressor to cease and desist afterwards, you have not won at all.

Comments, questions and discussion is encouraged.

Guantes
03-14-2006, 09:48 PM
No Oh Sh*t.
IMO, some of those who have been exposed to numerous experiences of the unwanted kind, usually "on the job", as I think you get more there than anywhere else, other than maybe combat, over time lose the Oh Sh*t response and go immediately to reaction.

Is the Collapsing Startle Response specifically for bladed attacks?

Roundeyesamurai
03-14-2006, 11:23 PM
I really don't think there's such a thing as a "natural" startle response for an ingrained response to go against- in other words, I've typically held the opinion that the startle is, in and of itself, a reaction of surprise, but that what an individual does (closes the eyes tightly, jumps back, says "whoa!", freezes in place, covers the head, etc.) is largely based on previous incidents of being startled, and what protected them (or should have protected them) in those instances.

Likewise, what Brownie described as the usual startle response against a weapon, is largely based on being presented with an unknown quantity- the "threat", in whatever form it presents itself, is a new experience (after all, how many people are used to being attacked suddenly with a knife?), and the instinct is to keep the threat away.

I pretty much have to agree with Gloves, that the more one is exposed to harm, the less one is actually startled. That isn't to say it doesn't happen, it's just alot more rare. In those instances, having an ingrained startle response is usually a good thing.

The startle response I prefer, to movement. I teach my students to "get the hell out of the way". Don't back up, because backing up usually leads to disaster. Move off the line (an aikido term, appropriated for awhile by a "prominent" firearms instructor). The particular sort of movement which best facilitates this, is much easier shown than described in text, but suffice to say that the important part (as I teach it) is to GTHOOTW.

Roundeyesamurai
03-14-2006, 11:24 PM
One thing I am not especially enamored of, is the "flinch" response taught by some instructors these days, to protect the head. These responses are easy to learn because they rely upon the first, and most basic, startle response- the infantile protective response with which we're all born. This response, to freeze, curl into the fetal position, cover the head, and hold breath (followed momentarily afterward by copious crying) is extremely appropriate for infants. However, in (combative) adults, it presents a problem- when one works off of this instinct, drops the head and hunches (a standing fetal position, more or less) and covers the head, the rest of the response kicks in- holding one's breath and freezing in place. This is a good way to get hurt very badly.

Likewise, consider the faults of covering the head exclusively (or at least, primarily)- covering the head does not afford protection against any attack to the head other than a hand (your arm covering your head will provide virtually no protection against, say, a baseball bat), and it completely exposes the torso (Brownie described the importance of protecting the core).

Additionally, the head is designed to absorb impacts and deflect incoming objects much better than is the torso.

And, it causes temporary vertigo- the eyes are covered, the head is covered and/or canted violently (destroying one's equillibrium), and in a panic, one stops hearing their environment (auditory exclusion).

To sum it up, the "flinch" response is likely to leave one frozen in place, poorly protected, holding one's breath, panicked, blinded, deafened, and dizzy/disoriented. Not a good spot to be in, combatively.

But, it does protect against a sucker punch to the face.

Brownie
03-14-2006, 11:47 PM
G,

Your first paragraph is spot on as usual.

The startle response is predacated on concepts and technques that work to protect the core from damage. We train people to work out of their natural reactions to danger [ extending or pushing away ] under the O'sh*t factor. Those who likely don't have the experiences from the streets or formal training.

The techniques are from defensive knife over the years with Jim Keating and I put the individual techniques together over time into this concept of protecting the core using the collapsing startle response most can't do under the stress of O'sh*t.

What we see is that the techniques and the concept behind them work very very well against an explosive sudden knife attack. Knives are a harder weapon to defend against and survive the first second without taking a killing shot to the body's core right from the start. In reality, if you can survive the first second of the knife attack with anything, the rest of life gets pretty damned easy.

These technques move immediately into the offensive as soon as contact is made. The contact is inevitable due to the close distance they are launched from and under the element of surprise, but you need to "save your butt" as it were initially and the core and head/face is the primary here.

Developed through defensive knife work over the years and tested in real time with training knives that leave damage and cause injury at full speed. The techniques deflect the action whole protecting the core, blocks will NOT work against a person who knows how to use a knife well. These techniques work against people who can cut you PDQ though. You can't expect to nagate the damage of the knife, but you can mimimize it and survive the encounter.

Explosive startling, unknown attacks that are not staged over hundreds of hours, the concept has been sound and greatly increases the chance of surviving this type of attack in the first second of the action. Movement off centerline is key while protecting the core, unless the attack comes from an oblique, then movement is still used and ones actual centerline is the only thing that changed. Getting out of the way, but collapsing to protect, and immediately moving on them is important.

It becomes ingrained over time like the street. It takes many hours to unprogram the natural O'sh*t responses of extending and learn to react to the threat and not hesitate. This isn't so much for the 1% of the population that doesn't need it, but the other 99% who don't have a clue but to rely on their natural responses and end up dead.

The natural response is what inexperienced and untrained people will use. Thats who the training is geared toward, those who will only rely on their natural reaction using their arms and hands to ward off the danger which leaves the core exposed. Knife attack victims most always show these "defensive wounds" to the arms and hands, that being ones untrained natural responses to lethal encounters.

Unfortunatley, the best clip I have of being startled unrehearsed using these collapsing startle response techniques against a knife can not be shown until he gets the software to blurr faces.

Roundeyesamurai
03-15-2006, 12:06 AM
O'sh*t.

I used to know a Morgan O'Shyte, would that be the guy you're referring to? :D

Dave James
03-15-2006, 09:00 AM
Although I tend to agree with this well thought out post,, and it may be just because I'm getting older,, but I find that over time, and exposed to violent sudden attacks, there seems to be a bell curve so to speak,, we start out frighten/startled,and we flinch, and hopefully learn to respond...As time goes by and the attacks either increase due to time on job,,or the job your in, you reach a point, where its just second nature,,, which may or may not be the most dangerous time,,but and its just MO but, as we get older,, the shell shock/flinch began to set in again,,maybe its due to lack of practice,different AO /or living area, or just plain wear and tear on the body.. Maybe the way to defeat the responce is continued practice of some type like the MA's or shooting sports,

Brownie
03-15-2006, 11:25 AM
DJ,
If we look at the natural flinch response, the shoulders are pulled up near the head, the elbows raise and leave the body and the forearms and hands move up and out from a few inches to several trying to keep perceived danger away.

That sort of flinch can be a collapsing startle response as well, ingraining it with lots of repetitions. At times that response may also be the natural when the danger is right up on us, not having the time to move the forearms/hands away from us.

The objective is to not extend out with the hands/arms in defensive postures naturally but to pull them in tight and protect the core, deflecting and not blocking.

The human natural response is usually a blocking intent. The extending to keep the danger from us is to block/push away further advancement of the danger.

In the case of the explosive sudden knife attack, where the natural startle mechanism kicks in, blocks with the arms/hands will take damage. As I mentioned, the defensive knife wounds seen on victims tells the tale of what is happening here.

As G mentioned, and I'm sure you, RES and others here can understand, the more one is exposed to this environ and violence the more we just react to it and move to neutralize the threat. That can be the time we take damage from the knife.

The collpasing startle response [ CSR ] is not meant for every situation, but those times when we are suddenly under attack. In these situations, if we make a natural startle response, the core is left exposed and if it is a knife attack, fatal damage can be done in the first seconds, before we can do what it is we do [ our subsequent reactions ] to end the problem.

The CSR protects the core immediately, vital to surviving an incoming blade. Created for that type of situation, the CSR works well for other than knife attacks, the knife being the most dangerous weapon in close contact situations.

The techniques within the CSR do their job of deflecting and redirecting the attack and followups are immediate from those techniques to control, and create time and distance.

When the site admin gets the fuzzy face thing figured out, I'll throw up a 10 second clip of this guy freeflow attacking with the knife in the Tucson class. The last CSR in the clip, I was talking to the students and he made the move on me, but the attack was redirected just the same, and protected my body core. I didn't see the knife coming in until it was pretty much in my face.

oregonshooter
05-24-2006, 11:23 AM
Can someone point me to a description of the CSR or better yet photo / video of how it looks?

Brownie
05-24-2006, 02:15 PM
Jim,

I'm getting ready to head out to Tenn for a class over Memorial Day weekend, then back one day and off to Santa Fe, NM until June 3. One on one coming in on June 5 and after that I'll have a break and try to get a photo up of what the collapsing startle response looks like for you.

Have a safe Memorial Day weekend

oregonshooter
05-24-2006, 02:16 PM
Thanks Brownie,
Looking forward to it.

JMusic
05-24-2006, 05:47 PM
I had a lightining Bolt hit a tree right beside me a few years ago. Too bad I didn't get a picture of that. It was probably a perfect example, once I landed.:D
Jim

kilogulf59
05-25-2006, 06:12 AM
I had a lightining Bolt hit a tree right beside me a few years ago. Too bad I didn't get a picture of that. It was probably a perfect example, once I landed.:D
Jim

Jim, I believe that is the "Collapsing Colon Responce". :eek:

Brownie
05-25-2006, 10:15 AM
Okay,
Here's a few pics of what the collapsing startle response would generally look like. The first picture is for incoming limb from a right handed person and the second from a left handed person.

The face, neck and upper chest are protected by the one and the abdomen by the other. These are not blocking, they will deflect incoming from the bodies "core".

If it comes in low, the body can turn deflecting anything to the side. If it comes higher, the upper hand swats/deflects in a movement like you would swat a fly from your face, also while turning the upper body in deflecting the incoming.

How to determine which position to get into under startle? The side the attack comes from gets the upper arm/hand naturally. We are prone to get that side up to protect, the other arm just falls into postion.

The still pics can't show the movement here, but suffice to say you are not just standing around as incoming arms/hands with or without weapons are presented. The head and body are moving while the arms/hands deflect and we go from there.

JMusic
05-25-2006, 11:41 AM
Ken, forever hereforth to be refered to as the CCR!:D
Jim