Cross Eye Dom Question

[Low Drag]

I have a question for the group regarding QK with a rifle and cross eye dominance.

Some of you may have seen my thoughts on C.A.R. and my success with it. I have some very real problems with cross eye dominance and C.A.R. is the first way I’ve shot a handgun that allowed my to go from sighted to threat focused to sighted and back to TF shooting while moving or remaining stationary and actually get hits.

OK to the issue. I spoke with Steve regarding QK after seeing his new quarter and he said his pat question is “can you point your finger at something?” So I gave it a shot and then really paid attention to where I was pointing. I found when I used my right hand to point and I kept my right hand/arm near the right side of my body (like I would with a rifle) I was way off the intended target. When I moved my hand/arm to the center of my body (like I can with a handgun) and pointed I was able to get my finger pointed where I focused. I hope I’m being clear with my explanation.

I’ve found I need find a way to shoot with both eyes open unless I’m firing a rifle at longer ranges. I can get good hits with a handgun or rifle at CQB distances using just my right eye, but the moment I move both eyes open up and my ability to get good hits goes to hell in a hand basket.

I’ve spend some time at the range working with my AR carbine with moderate success. I’ve done OK keeping my support side elbow under the gun and using my support hand index finger pointing at the target under the hand guard. Once I get out past 15 yards or so the shots begin to really loosen up. I figure I should be able to get good COM hits out to 25 yards and beyond with an AR15. I was in the Corps for a good number of years, I’m very comfortable with the weapon so no issues with “newness”.

While explaining this to my wife I may have stumbled upon an answer, cocking my head to the side, as in C.A.R. I was able to keep both eyes open and get my finger aligned with my focus point.

I’m open to anything you guys have to say.


Thanks.

[Brownie]

Hey LD, how to hell are you?

Can you tell us which is the dominant eye and what hand you normally shoot a handgun with?

I can tell you that you'll have to shoot the long gun on the dominant eye side right off though, if you aren't already.

I'm left eye dominant and shoot right handed with pistols, but long guns I shoot from the dominant eye side [ the left shoulder in my case ].

There are a few solutions to the problem, Roger will probably chime in here shortly as well once we know the answers to the questions.

[Low Drag]

I'm do'in well outside of a hectic day at work today.

I'm right handed and left eye dom. That's why C.A.R. has worked so well for me.

I'm looking forward to hearing from Roger.

[Brownie]

If you don't already, learn to shoot them poles from the left shoulder like I did. That gets that master eye working the way it should.

If you see anything like a double image in anyway threat focused with both eyes open, try squinting the non dominant eye some [ in your case the right eye ].

[sweatnbullets]

lowdrag, real quick question.

If you focus on something across the room, with both eyes open, and you hold your thumb up, how many images of your thumb do you see?

[Low Drag]

lowdrag, real quick question.

If you focus on something across the room, with both eyes open, and you hold your thumb up, how many images of your thumb do you see?
Two blurry, overlapped thumbs when held out straight in front of me.

[sweatnbullets]

I think it would be a good idea to find out exactly what your visual centerline is. Grab you wife and do this test.

Have your wife cover one of her eyes so you can focus on the other. Take a pen and hold it out at arms lenth, upward in your right fist like a big ass front sight. Focus on her uncovered eye and with both eyes open line the pen up with her eye.

She will be able to observe where your visual centerline is because the pen will be line up on it. It could be directly line up with your left eye of it could be somewhere in between your eyes. Have your wife tell you exactly what your visual centerline is.

Once you know your centerline, with both eyes open, this is where you need to work from.

Mod. Iso. can be very helpful with the handgun, getting it comfortably over to your centerline.

If you see two images of the pen in this test find the one you like best. This will usually be the one that you see with your dominant eye. Close your weak eye to verify that the image is that of your dominant eye. This is the image that you need to work with. I see two images I always work with the image on the left. The image I get from my dominant eye.

I used to be cross dominant, every test told me I was cross dominant. I worked my right eye until it became the dominant eye. I did this by dry practicng with hard focus on the front sight with my right eye, with my left eye closed. Took some time....but my dominance did change. A lot easier than learning how to run a long gun left handed.

[Low Drag]

I think it would be a good idea to find out exactly what your visual centerline is. Grab you wife and do this test.

Have your wife cover one of her eyes so you can focus on the other. Take a pen and hold it out at arms lenth, upward in your right fist like a big ass front sight. Focus on her uncovered eye and with both eyes open line the pen up with her eye.

She will be able to observe where your visual centerline is because the pen will be line up on it. It could be directly line up with your left eye of it could be somewhere in between your eyes. Have your wife tell you exactly what your visual centerline is.

Once you know your centerline, with both eyes open, this is where you need to work from.

Mod. Iso. can be very helpful with the handgun, getting it comfortably over to your centerline.

If you see two images of the pen in this test find the one you like best. This will usually be the one that you see with your dominant eye. Close your weak eye to verify that the image is that of your dominant eye. This is the image that you need to work with. I see two images I always work with the image on the left. The image I get from my dominant eye.

I used to be cross dominant, every test told me I was cross dominant. I worked my right eye until it became the dominant eye. I did this by dry practicng with hard focus on the front sight with my right eye, with my left eye closed. Took some time....but my dominance did change. A lot easier than learning how to run a long gun left handed.

OK, I see two blurry, overlapped images of the pen. When I blink I get one and it lines up with my left eye.

[sweatnbullets]

As robin suggested, Does the "blurry overlapping" image improve if you squint the right eye?

[Low Drag]

As robin suggested, Does the "blurry overlapping" image improve if you squint the right eye?
It does improve some when I squint the right eye.

[sweatnbullets]

For both eyes open threat focus shooting you have to work off of that visual centerline.

Not a real problem with a HG just bring the gun or the head over.

The long gun is another story. You can either close your left eye and shoot with the right eye. Or you can learn to shoot left handed.

How bad is the vision in the right eye?

[Low Drag]

Right eye is not so good, even corrected. I have an astigmatism (sp) that is worse in the right eye.

You did get me thinking last night and I broke out my AR. I bladed my stance (wrapped my support hand around mag well) and was able to bring my head over the stock a little bit. I need to work on it but I was snapping in on little nick nacks around the house in no time. I was having a bit of trouble getting the stock to mount just right in my shoulder but I think I can work that out. Maybe adjust the stock in a bit.

Thanks for the help.

[DocH]

SNB,that's a very interesting test and I'm about to go perform it.I have always seen two images of the pistol when indexing with both eyes open.
I never performed a test like that,but have always used the left image of the pistol for the indexing.If I used the right image,then closed one eye and looked at the sights,I was way left on the target.
This method has worked fine for me,but it will be nice after a hundred years :) to find which is my dominant eye.When using the sights at longer ranges I use the right eye to concentrate on the sight but have both eyes open,with the left slightly squinted as in Brownie's suggestion.
Good information,and we thank you,sir.

[sweatnbullets]

Right eye is not so good, even corrected. I have an astigmatism (sp) that is worse in the right eye.

You did get me thinking last night and I broke out my AR. I bladed my stance (wrapped my support hand around mag well) and was able to bring my head over the stock a little bit. I need to work on it but I was snapping in on little nick nacks around the house in no time. I was having a bit of trouble getting the stock to mount just right in my shoulder but I think I can work that out. Maybe adjust the stock in a bit.

Thanks for the help.

Last night I also broke out my AR and tried to put myself in your shoes. I did not want to suggest something too far out of the box, but my first thought was that you could use QK, right handed and left eyed. Since you are seeing the same thing, I'm going to take it in that direction.

One thing about QK, with a handgun or a long gun, you choose how far below the line of sight that you want to be. The distance below the line of sight will effect the reference point. But once you find that reference point for that position you are good to go.

QK with a rifle does not require a cheek weld, you choose where you want your head. That position can have a custom reference point assigned to it.:cool:

Interesting!

[Low Drag]

Last night I also broke out my AR and tried to put myself in your shoes. I did not want to suggest something too far out of the box, but my first thought was that you could use QK, right handed and left eyed. Since you are seeing the same thing, I'm going to take it in that direction.

One thing about QK, with a handgun or a long gun, you choose how far below the line of sight that you want to be. The distance below the line of sight will effect the reference point. But once you find that reference point for that position you are good to go.

QK with a rifle does not require a cheek weld, you choose where you want your head. That position can have a custom reference point assigned to it.:cool:

Interesting!
I'm going to pull mine of out the case now and try working with a more bladed stance to get my left eye over the weapon. Candles and nick nacks beware!

[Dave James]

LD just a thought,, for the AR if your using just the irons, you may want to look into a Red Dot/HOLO type sight, as yu know , they require you to shoot with both eyes open,

I knew one kid that was a shooter like your self,, he trained rifle using left hand and pistol right hand,, he was the fastest snake eater I ever saw on transitions, when the rifle went tits up

[Low Drag]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I got out today for a test drive. What I found was I need some type of alignment with my dom eye. If I bladed my body I was able to get my left eye over the gun and could get some good hits so long as I got my left elbow under the gun.

Thanks for all the tips and helping me to think this through.

[Low Drag]

Well I got convinced to try open irons with both eyes open. While it's not a cake walk I can do it. The only reason I can think of is the rear sight of the AR is very close to my eye.

I also tried an eotech at the gun show last weekend and I can make that work, I'm very surprised. I may try an ACOG if I get a change at the next gun show.

I worked with both eyes open with the large close range rear aperture and I could get some pretty quick doubles in. It got a little difficult on the move, things burred up a bit but I think I can make it work with a little effort.

I'll try to get some dry fire practice on the TV during a talking head show. The quick transitions between talking heads makes for good dry fire practice.

[Brownie]

Keep us posted on your progress with this LD

Semper Fi

[Beagles747]

Your going to find it even easier with the ACOG. The ACOG was designed to do it! You'll see.....with the ACOG it will be a strange experience as you'll have the magnification. It does work, I played around with it about a year or so ago when I got my first ACOG. It takes a little practice to get used to. It's really effective in tracking moving targets.

Have fun!


-John

[Low Drag]

Your going to find it even easier with the ACOG. The ACOG was designed to do it! You'll see.....with the ACOG it will be a strange experience as you'll have the magnification. It does work, I played around with it about a year or so ago when I got my first ACOG. It takes a little practice to get used to. It's really effective in tracking moving targets.

Have fun!


-John

I keep hearing the ACOG is a good unit for a guy like me. I just need to think it through to see if it's $900 worth easier. ;)

[scottw]

After reading the posts on CD I thought I would add my $0.02 worth. I have been studying the CD issue for close to 30 years and have a few thing that you can think about. First the only true way to test for CD is to take a piece of paper 81/2X11 and cut a hole in the center of the paper about 3/4" dia. have the person hold the paper at arms length and below waist level. Have them look at something across the room and raise the paper to eye level until they can see object through the hole. You must tell them not to move anything. Now close one eye at a time and find out which one will be on the object. I is important to tell them not to move as a right handed person will think they are Right Dominant and will move the paper to the right eye without thinking. The problem with pointing the finger is that it will very from person to person as to their mindset. If they are tired the test may be different than if they are full of energy. Also you run into a problem of mindset. Most people do not want to admit they have a CD problem and will unknowingly force the right eye to work. I would not ever recommend some to change dominance. If you want to do so on your own be well advised of the problems that can happen. The web is full of research on CD and I strongly recommend you try the following link. www.katherinebell.com Click on Home Schooling, click on Memory Tapes, click on Mixed Dominance. Read the article and it will answer mental problems better than I can on this post. I am wanting to take the QK course and because of the problems with CD I am dealing with those problems now rather than in class. I think I have finally come up with a way for CD people to be able to shoot the QK system without all the problems. If anyone is interested I will know more after next time at the range. Sorry for the long post, if you want to hear more please contact me and I can go into more detail.

[Jermtheory]

hello!

first post.

i saved the page when i came across the forums just to "lurk" and read.but i had to register once i seen this topic.

ive always shot pistols right handed with both eyes open,sighting with my left eye(never knew there was a name for it?).my experiences with rifles has mostly been bolt action and such with scopes where i would shoot right handed with my left eye closed.

i never really had a problem with being cross dominant until i recently bought an AR style rifle and tried using the iron sights.

when i realized it was an issue i started looking for a solution(other than switching to left handed shooting after 20+ years).

i stumbled across a couple items that i found interesting,both of which i believe were designed with clay shooting in mind?...

one was a dot filter that is worn on your glasses and the other was a small rail that blocked the dominant eyes view of the front sight.


the blinder on the front of the weapon,near the front sight,doesnt seem practical/possible with a high front sight like those found on an AR(as opposed to a shotgun where the sight in right on the barell and the blind mounts to the rib),and the dot filter in your glasses would seem to be more obstructing than necessarry.ntm you would always need equipted glasses when shooting(i would prefer something mounted on the rifle).


but these two items got me thinking...

so i played arround with the idea of a blinder mounted off of my rear flip up.first i used my finger to obstruct the view(LOS) between my left eye and my front sight.it seemed to work very well for allowing me to keep my focus on the sights(with my right eye).

next i took a small "L" allen wrench and used a piece of tape to make a small flag-like blinder and mounted(taped) it at an angle from my rear sight.

this seems to be working very well for me so far(with limited use as of yet).but if it continues to work for me im considering putting some real effort into making something much more secure/durable.

i was just curious if anyone had any experience with anything along these lines.

are there problems/issue's that im not considering that might creep up?

the little "flag" i made was less than 1" square(maybe 3/4") and it only really blocks the LOS from my left eye to the front sight when in a shooting posture.

the vision in my right eye is good,if its any worse than my left i have a hard time noticing it.but for whatever reason my brain seems to want to use my left eye as the default.

any thoughts?

[David Williams]

Jermtheory -
First of all, welcome aboard and thank you for deciding to jump right in.

Secondly, I think that if whatever you are doing is working for your situation, then good on you for doing something. The only thing I would caution against is learning to depend upon that little modification you've made to your AR.

Techniques that physically prevent you from sighting with your dominant eye are a double-edged sword, but as long as you understand your shooting requirements then you will be good to go. By this I mean you need to know and understand what type of shooting you expect to be doing. What is it about shooting your AR that requires you to keep both eyes open? I realize that this is a simplistic question with obvious answers, but I ask it because having you put the answer into words may help you think about exactly what kind of shooting you expect/want to be doing.

If you are simply target or distance shooting, then I think the setup you have is an excellent idea and could even possibly be used indefinitely if you so choose.

If you are doing what I call "work" with your AR, which is more offensive and dynamic, then both eyes open is the way to go and your technique should simply be an interim solution while you are "retraining" your brain.

As far as any *flags* or things that you might be missing in your assessment, I would say that about covers it from my point of view. Others may chime in with something I overlooked.

[Jermtheory]

David-

thanks for the welcome and the comments.

i bought the new rifle primarily for self/home defense,but it wont be sitting arround waiting (hopefully indefinitely) on that.i plan to use it alot for plinking/target shooting,maybe some hunting.i would like to train with it for those worst case scenario's as well though.i have some(relatively limited) pistol training,but its recently become very clear that a rifle(for those purposes) is a whole new ball game.

so my primary reason for having it and its most probably uses arent exactly in line.

in a defense situation i would want both eyes for the obvious reasons,and i would like to do my target shooting etc with that in mind.

ive heard mixed opinions on whether or not you can/should try to retrain which eye is dominate.however at this point,i feel if it is possible i would be more comfortable with that than switching to lefty.

is it possible to retrain your dominate eye for a specific task?or should i be working on this in various ways other than shooting during my day to day activities?im assuming the latter.

perhaps using an eye patch to strengthen my right eye....or rather my brains tendency to count on my right eye as opposed to the left?

[David Williams]

There are a lot of opinions about whether or not it is possible, beneficial, or even advisable to attempt to retrain your brain when it comes to eye-dominance. Unfortunately I don't have the medical or psychological background to give you a definitive answer or explore all the implications of doing so, but I can tell you what I've experienced..

I am heavily cross dominant, and not just with my eyes and hands. I'm left-handed on the long guns, right-handed on the pistolas. My experience with C.A.R. has provided me with the ability to consciously switch eyes as needed, whether with rifle or pistol, but it takes time. I think I was lucky in that I never set out to actually attempt to "retrain" a non-dominant eye to become dominant - but rather worked at being able to use whichever eye I needed to use at any given moment. After a couple of years of practice, I can do this smoothly and with only minimal conscious effort. Make no mistake, though...at the beginning it was a very conscious effort and often quite frustrating as I fought with my brain's tendency to default to my left eye.

It does take some work to do consistently and reliably, and the possibility exists that you may only make matters worse...

I don't think that covering your dominant eye during day-to-day activities is the way to go, but that's just my opinion. I think that the more appropriate thing to do is to teach your brain to be able to switch on demand rather than reprogram your dominant eye.

[Brownie]

I'm also cross dominant.

Left eye [ slight dominance ] and shoot pistols right handed.

Long guns to the left shoulder. The drill instructors in the Corps tried to change me to a right handed shooter with long guns by kicking the hell out of me literally:rolleyes: .

I went from expert to the toilet immediately. So they kicked me some more and told me to shoot left shoulder again:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have never attempted to shoot a rifle off the right shoulder with the non dominant eye with that exception of the above being forced on me for about 20 rds or so.

It's easier to train and use the same side shoulder as the dominant eye with long guns IMO. It's just something I've always done. What is nice about this is that I can shoot left handed with pistols almost as well as with the right hand naturally.:D

[Jermtheory]

thanks for the advice/input guys.

im going to try and make it work(right handed) and play arround with it for awhile.if things dont seem to be going well,i may end up switching over to lefty.

[JMusic]

I really don't know what I am. I shoot left handed pistol and rifle but can shoot pistol right handed with ease. When I point my finger at an object I see two distinct fingers. When I was younger I attempted to shoot a bow right handed. I became pretty succesful at it even being able to hit objects on the move. I never though was comfortable shooting right handed. When I shoot left handed I can do so with both eyes open. When I shoot right handed I can do so with both eyes open just slower. I'm more comfy shooting left handed though I still want to shoot a bow right handed. I know this won't help but I wanted to make the point switching isn't easy. You probably are better off closing one eye. I have more trouble with the coordination than the eye dominance. I can take a 22 rifle and shoot a golf ball out of the air with either hand. When I shoot this way and probably many ways quickly, I shoot over top of the gun without sights.

Jim