My Zeroing Experiences

[grimreaper1973]

Don't know if I CAN zero with my eyes. Maybe if I got a scope?
The proof is in the pudding. It was either cold, or windy, or both while
trying this. Lesson learned for the beginner: don't shoot in cold weather, go skiing instead. Less frustration and more fun. Even if it costs more for the lift ticket.

[grimreaper1973]

Here's the latest dirt. 1st shot groups on 2/19/08 before zeroing were all pulling right...but mostly consistent on a horizontal level. In 20 degree weather with wind. Maybe the wind was pulling it? It was only a 25 meter distance...any ideas?

[grimreaper1973]

I lied. First started on 2/16/08 and THAT was the bad weather day. here's the dirt:

[Brownie]

grimreaper1973,

Are you using a 6 O'clock hold?
What distance are you shooting that target from?
What rifle are you using?
What type of sights is that weapon employing?

You should be able to zero using a 6 O'clock hold, placing the front sight even with the rear sight and holding that sight picture so it looks as though the bottom of the target is resting on aligned front and rear sight.

[grimreaper1973]

I did what a guy at the range suggested for zeroing and tapped lightly on the crossbar or whatever it's called that makes up the front portion of the butterfly tongue to correct for the pulling right.

There is still a bit of pull so I am wondering if it is the trigger pull. I was always taught you want to squeeze slowly and lightly enough for it to surprise you when it goes off...or do the dime on the end of the barrel trick while practicing trigger squeeze with "dry" fire.

I heard that dry firing damages the firing pin, so I have only done 5 practice squeezes at home, after oiling and cleaning well.

Again, I am considering I may need to get a scope. Since I thought that you don't look at the target, you focus on your receiver rear iron sight right?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

[grimreaper1973]

Brownie said:

Are you using a 6 O'clock hold?
What distance are you shooting that target from?
What rifle are you using?
What type of sights is that weapon employing?

-----

yes. 25 meter. marlin .22 model 60. (using cci regular velocity .22 lr rounds) with iron sights. part of the problem sounds like HOW I was sighting. I try to center the "heart"

[grimreaper1973]

Of course it may not be my skill...it might be shooting is for the birds...just look at who I have for a spotter...

[Brownie]

grimreaper1973,

I've got a model 60 Marlin myself.

I'd suggest that you retry this when it is a calm day. Were you shooting from a rest? A bench? Offhand?

It looks like you have two different groups of shots on the second target. The groups aren't bad though with open sights on that gun.

Nice bird, they have sharp eye sight, it's probably not the spotter :D

[grimreaper1973]

Shooting from a bench with a u-shaped rest. Rifle butt stock rests against my shoulder (right one) and I use my left hand under the stock to decrease horizontal floating. My body angle is more or less 45 degrees to the rifle. Hope this helps...

[grimreaper1973]

So when you are lining up the target (say you are using the same targets as mine) you keep the entire "body" just above the site? I focus downrange briefly then return my focus to the rear sight and keep the front sight in line with the rear sight.

Are there any good tools to hold your rifle in place so you don't have to use your hands at all? Or anything you could make yourself to hold the rifle? That way I could eliminate a good portion of the troubleshooting (my squeeze? trigger pull? aim? and so forth).

[Brownie]

Bench resting to zero a rifle is good.

Take your left elbow and point it toward the target, use the clenched fist of the left hand to support the fore-end stock [ the stock rests on the clenched fist ]. In this manner, the more you relax or tighten the fist allows for elevation adjustments.

Your forearm place alongside the fore arm and the elbow pointing to the target gives more contact points to steady the rifle. Hope this explanation suffices in narrative, a picture here would be worth a thousand words for sure.

The above was shared with me by an US SF Ssgt sniper while we were attending HK's Counter-sniper course. It tightened my own groups almost by half, and we were already holding to one inch at 100 yrds to begin with:D

[Brownie]

So when you are lining up the target (say you are using the same targets as mine) you keep the entire "body" just above the site?

That will give you a more repeatable sight picture [ the 6 O'clock hold ]. Trying to hold POA/POI [ point of aim/point of impact ] can be trying at best as you don't have a constant reference in the same spot, so the rds won't be as tight normally.

The front sight should be crystal clear, and the target blurry. Get that target to rest on top of the front sight, keeping it centered from left to right, with the front sight placed squarely in the rear sight and you'll see improvement IMO.

This picture shows what I'm trying to convery here.

[grimreaper1973]

I really like that pic of the site picture. I always thought you centered on the heart...now I see the benefit of "whole target" viewing like you have illustrated.
Much obliged :) Can't wait to get out there and see how much that tightens things up. It's snowing here predicted for a few days so we'll wait and see...gives me time to clean 'er up.

[RAM]

Grim,

Brownies advice is right on! I just want to add a tiny bit. The front sight is closest to where the bullet comes out of the barrel so it is the important one and as B said the FRONT sight should be crystal clear, the rear sight and the target will be out of focus.

Also you said you squeze the trigger until the shot breaks as a surprise. This is also correct, but I want to add: make sure when you squeze the trigger the rest of your hand does NOT squeze. Think of it like this, your goal is to press the trigger straight to the rear without interrupting the sight alignment (no movement of the gun).

Lastly, dry firing the vast majority of modern firearms does not harm them. Check the owners manual or the manufacturers web site for your specific weapon. For most shooting where the sights are used you can get more learning done by dry firing than by actually firing the weapon. Most of the guns I own that have over a thousand rounds through them have at least ten times the round count in dry trigger presses.

[grimreaper1973]

I appreciate the input. Feel free to comment anytime. Brownie has been rock solid reputable with me and anyone that is a friend of his is alright in my book...until he says otherwise :)

I think part of the problem is in the trigger squeeze. With the weather hovering around the 20 degree mark and wind chill bringing it to about 10, my hands may have been a little eager to squeeze those rounds out.

I realize I'm only plinking on the range now, but I am trying to keep the "big picture" here for future use such as the "thinking inside the box" quick kill thread Brownie posted. I do eventually want to get a .22 pistol for practice as well.

BTW, I think I WAS aiming just under the body as suggested when I plinked that dead-on perfect zero shot...or was that the shot my "spotter" took when I wasn't looking? :)

[grimreaper1973]

Worked like a charm. Still having problems adjusting the windage on the butterfly...but aiming to the left and lining it up like you said put it right in the cashbox, Brownie! Thanks much for the aiming tips :)

Please note that "Picture 2" below was the first shot group I did by aiming dead center and per instructions for 7 shots after the first 3 shots. I tapped the butterfly...but still appears to be slightly off and right.

On "picture 1" I simply aimed per instructions but slightly left of center (ok, I aimed at the bottom left corner). I like it! I like it alot...just wish i could adjust my windage

[Brownie]

Those look pretty damned good at 25m's.

No problem, there are lots of people here who are a wealth of information as well. Keep on shooting.

[grimreaper1973]

Now I just have to adjust the vertical (or left to right) windage. This is how I understand adjusting it from the marlin online manual. I tried "lightly" tapping on the rectangular piece in the middle of the "butterfly" and it doesn't move. Any ideas?

[Brownie]

I tried "lightly" tapping on the rectangular piece in the middle of the "butterfly" and it doesn't move.

You run the risk of breaking the rear sight if whacked too hard, but you should be able to move it some. I don't want to recommend something that leaves you with a broken sight, but it's that option to get it to move or leave it and learn to shoot it Kentucky windage.

[grimreaper1973]

And the best part of using KW? It fits my life view...slightly off-center.

[Beagles747]

Grim,

I have nothing to add to the advice you have already got on sighting. But just to mention if you want to practice dry firing and want to minimize the possibility of putting any stress on your firearm in anyway, I would suggest buying snap caps or A-Zoom practice rounds for all your guns. I have them for all my pistols. They work great. I like the ones with the internal spring in them the best.

Happy shooting!

-John

[RTBRANE]

DO NOT dry fire any .22 gun without something in the chamber. Use a snapcap or a fired case. With the offset firing pin that .22s use, it will beat a dent in the side of the chamber opening, making loading and extraction difficult, or impossible. It may also cause the firing pin to break.
This is a good way to ruin a good gun. For some reason, revolvers are most commonly damaged this way. Possibly kids playing with them?

Will

[grimreaper1973]

thanks for the dry firing tips guys. and I think my rifle is already a write off anyways. I had it in storage for about 4 years. First time I cleaned it I marveled at how easy it was to get apart and clean in a snap. But I found that there was pitting evident. Hindsight and all...good thing I became a member here :) Very useful information on all aspects of rifle care and use.
As an update to my firing, I switched from 25 to 50 meters. The shot groups are poor, poor indeed. Or at least they were IMHO. I DID change my type of paper targets though, switching from 25 meter human silhouette to 50 meter circles. Any ideas on that?

[grimreaper1973]

Just got back to the range this week after a hiatus. 25 meter zeroing still not up to my satisfaction. Perfectionist. Perhaps if I bought a new .22...
I shoot with my right eye shut and found that since I did my shooting, my lower right eye muscles are...sore? I can't hold the right eye closed long - the left one gets a slight fuzziness. Anyone else get this problem?
I did find that holding for 3-5 seconds then relaxing helped clear up the sight picture.
I'll post the shot groups soon if anyone is interested in offering advice.

-Grim-

"That's no moon..."

[Brownie]

Post em up, I'm interested in looking at them and comparing them to your earlier targets.

[grimreaper1973]

Will do. Now where'd I put that darn USB cable to connect the camera to the computer?

[E.Shell]

To add to the excellent advice already given:

1) Work on a Natural Point of Aim (NPOA). Whatever position you choose, get into it, get on target, then relax with your eyes closed for 10-15 seconds. Open your eyes and see where you're pointing the rifle. If you are not still on target, adjust your position until you are. If you are not using your NPOA, you are using excessive muscle strain to stay on target. As you move up in rifle calibers, this become increasingly important due to recoil considerations.

2) Get some snap caps and do some dry firing practice. This is the single most important thing that can be done to improve your range time productivity. It helps refine your position, your sight picture and your trigger control, and can be done independent of outdoor conditions. Every time I talk with my friend and professional long range instructor, Vern, he asks how many times I dry fired today. It DOES make a big difference. Safety first: Check and double check that your rifle is unloaded, and use snap caps.

3) Your Marlin M-60's rear sight will move in the barrel dovetail to adjust for windage error. A small brass punch and 4-6 ounce hammer are the perfect tools for the job. With your current error, you'll be looking to drive the rear sight to the left by about 1/16" to 1/8". Move the rear sight in the same direction you'd like the point of impact to move.

4) With rifles, it's "Aim small, miss small." IMHO, your target is a little large for a precision aiming point. I'd suggest making the target as small as you can see it clearly, without inducing excessive eye strain. At 25 yards/meters, a 1-1/2" sticky label is usually about right, but this will vary with the individual's eyesight acuity.

5) Experiment with some different brands of ammo. .22 rimfire rifles usually show a marked preference for certain brands, while shooting poorly with others. Your groups may not be fairly representing your own skills and you actually may be seeing a dislike for the ammo you're shooting. I'd suggest getting a box of each commonly available ammo and doing some objective experimenting. I'd be willing to bet you will find some types will deliver groups half the size of other types. Since it's a "compatibility" issue, it's not going to matter if it says "target" on the box or if it costs a lot. Some of my .22s shoot great with bulk ammo from WalMart.

Good luck!