Qk

[ken grant]

Went to the range today to work on my first attempt at QK. I used a Norinco Compact with a Ciener .22LR conversion kit.
I was using two hands from the ready position, Mod. Iso. Shooting small pieces of broken Clay Birds. Never shooting the same one twice in a row.
I found myself shooting very high and having to work on holding lower.
The worse problem was shooting several inches to the left and I don't how to correct that.

Anyone have any ideas?
Thanks
Ken

[Brownie]

"Went to the range today to work on my first attempt at QK

I found myself shooting very high and having to work on holding lower."

Ken,

The reference point at the end of the barrel to the threat should start at 2" below where you want the bullet to strike. Many people will raise the end of the barrel to be able to see it more readily, but the slide/barrel should remain parallel to the ground. If the muzzle is tipped up, the bullets are going to impact quite a bit on the high side.

Some people will use the muzzle 1-2" below, while others may need 3-4 inches below, it's dependent on how the shooter holds any particular firearm. Once the reference point is found for you with that gun, it's totally repeatable using your peripheral vision to "see" the correct reference mentioned.

Shooting left for a right handed shooter would be indicative of "pushing" the weapon toward the threat when pulling the trigger. You might also see the bullets striking low left as pushing the firearm will cause them to not only go left but low as well.

Try a full extension Iso stance, it should correct the pushing if thats whats ocurring from your description. By fully extending the arms, it's harder to push any further when firing.

Let us know how you make out with this on your next range visit.

[ken grant]

I was using fully extended arms in the Iso ready position( about 45 deg. down) and just bringing the pistol up from the ready.

[Brownie]

Ken,

You mentioned mod Iso in the orignal post which is indicative of the elbows slightly bent.

I forgot to mention as well that you should not be lowering your head, or hunching the shoulders, but instead bring the gun into your peripheral vision about nose/mouth height, barrel/slide level.

If you weren't pushing the gun, I'd have to see you shoot to correct whatever issues are causing this for you.

[ken grant]

You are right,I did have my elbows VERY slightly bent. Would locked be better?
Should I come up to chin area and then extend rather than just raising extended arms?
Will try again this weekend.
Also I think I will put the .22 kit on a Colt Commander frame with a flat mainspring housing. The Norinco has a curved housing and I think it points high for me.

[Brownie]

Would locked be better?

It depends on whether or not you are actually pushing the gun at the instance you pull the trigger as I surmised from the problem and mod Iso with bent elbows. If in fact you are pushing the gun, with locked elbows it will be nearly impossible to push the gun. I'd give it a try with locked elbows.

I wouldn't worry so much about how you present the weapon at this time. I'd concentrate on acquiring the reference point peripherally and developing that reference point till your hits are centered. With QK, it is hard to be have shots off laterally, but the vertical line of impact can change slightly based on the differences in acquiring the same visual reference precisely. In a quickly evolving SD situation at typical distances encountered where these skills might best be used, an inch or two veritcally will not be detrimental in anyway.

Once you can use the skill, it won't matter how you present the firearm as when the reference point is seen peripherally, you'll fire and hit.

[ken grant]

A VERY BIG THANKS for taking the time and making the effort to help out.
Just wish I could take Instruction in person with you.

[Brownie]

Ken,

It's never any trouble to take the time to answer questions people have on the skills I use and train others in. One of the reasons we exist here is for the purpose of getting life saving information thats not currently mainstream [ and at times considered blasphemy ] into the hands of people who carry firearms personally or for a living.

Keep us up to date on your progress with this. Don't hesitate to ask any questions you may have in the future.

[Mudrunner111]

I am new to this forum as I had seen a link to here from Defensive Carry.com. I believe the service that you are providing here is vital to law enforcement as well as to legal authorized citizens who have a need for this information.

I have studied for many years in the martial arts as well as other forms of self defense methods. During those studies the basic core of what you present here was touched on, but not to the detail that you provide here. My youngest son is an LEO and he and I practice our skills together when time is available. This new knowledge will be put to good use in our next session. Again thank you for your willingness to provide this resource. Have a super day. :p

Steve

[Brownie]

Welcome to the forum Steve, and thanks for your support and comments on the information found here.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to post up, the members help provide a vast wealth of knowledge in all aspects of self defense with all sorts of tools [ something found in your martial life likely as well :D].

I just did a class in Maineville, Ohio [ Near Dayton ] a month ago. May be back there in late summer or fall this year.

Stay sharp

[Desert Rat]

Ken,

When I was starting out shooting Iso I found I had many of the same problems you've encountered. Pulling too hard with the left hand can cause the gun to track left. Having the left hand too high on the gun while pulling too hard can cause the gun to track high and to the left. Having the left hand too high on the gun while pulling too hard and jerking the trigger instead of pressing it can really cause the gun to track high and to the left. I used to use the left-forefinger-on-the-triggerguard hold in Iso while jerking the trigger that caused me all of these problems.

Brownie mentioned shoving the gun forward a la the rock n' lock style draw. This caused me problems with my Quick Fire technique when I would, in my enthusiasm, push too hard and this would throw my initial shots low and to the left. Slowing down a bit helped.

While refining my QK and FSA techniques, I found that by raising the gun to chin level a la Applegate's advice allowed me to hit more consistently to point-of-focus. I also had to work on not jerking the trigger, which would usually send my shots to the left and down. Since my drawstroke these days is focused on the one-handed EU/ED draw rather than the two handed four count draw, raising the gun rather than pushing it forward just comes naturally.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned is the importance of the crush grip and a locked wrist. Crushing down on the grip serves to automatically lock the wrist, which assists in a more consistent muzzle angle, better recoil control (especially one-handed), and prevents limp-wristing. Besides, in an SD situation, you'll probably have a death grip on the gun anyway, so why not practice shooting that way from the start?

Also, if you have an arched mainspring housing on your Norinco, you might want to try a flat housing instead. It'll lower the grip angle quite a bit.

[Brownie]

Good post of your observations DR.

Something else that hasn't been mentioned is the importance of the crush grip and a locked wrist.

The convulsive grip is something not mentioned often but is important in these types of skills training. First, the convulsive grip does lock the wrist better naturally [ which helps in recoil control ] and the tighter you grip the firearm, the more it isolates the trigger finger which then naturally helps in controlling any tendency to "milk" the grip with the other fingers when pulling the trigger [ which can throw your shots ] as well as developing the ability to use the trigger finger press sequences with more rapidity while firing on threats.

Remember when we were training in the desert that I mentioned the faster the second and subsequent shots were fired, the tighter your groups would appear on the threat?. Thats something that comes with the combination of the convulsive grip and all the benefits subsequent to that.

[Desert Rat]

Remember when we were training in the desert that I mentioned the faster the second and subsequent shots were fired, the tighter your groups would appear on the threat?. Thats something that comes with the combination of the convulsive grip and all the benefits subsequent to that.

I remember. It was interesting to be able to actually see the lead splashing in a six inch circle on the steel targets. Those steel targets you have, BTW, actually compelled JB and I to have his welder brother fabricate a couple of our own. They work great for giving both visual and audio feedback when shooting threat focused.

[Desert Rat]

That reminds me, one more trick for a beginner in pointshooting is the importance of focusing hard on a particular spot on the target.

When point shooting is described as Threat Focused shooting, it's because this is important. Don't just aim for the bad guys shirt, aim for his shirt buttons. Don't just focus on his head, focus on his nose.

A red dot or something painted or drawn on the target works wonders for giving you a focal point that for whatever reason will tighten up your groups naturally. Vary it up. Don't just shoot at steel targets or cardboard targets or manufactured silhouette targets. Shoot at the clay pigeons and the Coke bottles and the Osama targets. Get some airsoft pistols and face masks and shoot at friends. Always find spots on a given target to focus on.

My steel targets get dots spray painted on them, and when I shoot at cardboard or paper targets, I'll just draw a dot somewhere as a focusing point. Brownie can explain better about why all this works so well for PSing accuracy. All I can say is that I've shown my two brothers how to point shoot and this little trick all by itself tightened their groups by half. Aim small, miss small, I guess.

[Brownie]

I make use of small dots drawn in pen on the silhouette targets in two of the skills sets within the ITFTS program.

Visually concentrating on a small area further develops/refines ones neural proprioceptors. It's fine tuning ones eye/hand coordination. As vision plays a bigger role than most think the more refnement one develops using direct vision and shooting where you look, the better threat focused skills become.

It's something that naturally occurs in most all of us that don't have some form of disability that may prevent this development.

Sounds like you are doing well DR. Good to hear it.