Half Hip vs No.2 Retention

[Guantes]

While tinkering I noticed something and wondered if anyone else has had the same experience.

While shooting 1/2 hip @ 5yds it is easy to keep the rounds where I want them and tight at a 1-2 rds/sec rate. When the rate jumps to 3+ rds/sec accuracy and grouping goes to hell in a handbag. Shooting from the #2 retention position, gun at about 45d with butt against ribs, it is much easier to keep an on target tight group at a 3+ rds/sec rate.

The gun snugged against the ribs seems to give it much more stability than just a single hand at a rapid fire rate. Anyone else noticed this?

The reason I brought it up is from what I have seen and read the #2 is usually relegated to the 0-2yd range.

Next time I will try it out to 10 yds.

[steve2267]

Guantes,

Couple questions for ya:

Which is faster for you?

draw to 1/2 hip & fire
draw to #2 retention & fire

Have you tried Brownie's Quick Kill variation on half hip where you lock your elbow into the hollow by your floating rib?


The QK 1/2 hip brings the elbow further forward than the classic Fairbairn 1/2 hip position, but enables very fast shots, especially transitioning between different targets by simply turreting your upper body.

Also, as I understand the classic 1/2 hip, that position is only the starting position. That is, you draw to 1/2 hip and fire one or two shots into your assailant, but then you will typically start zippering up the body. Your hand will tend to naturally rise to 3/4 hand position as you zipper. So I'm not sure the original 1/2 hip was intended for firing many rounds as fast as possible. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect.

Thoughts?

[Guantes]

Steve,
Good question.
Hard to say. I generally fire the first round from more like 1/4 hip which is about equal to #2 time wise.

I will try the QK, farther forward.

The problem may lie in my spaghetti, old, wrist, when firing fast. In the #2, I get the same stability as two handed.

As far as the use, a personal thing. It seemed like it would be nice to have one thing that would work from retention out to 5-7 yds with no movement but the finger, that would support rapid, accurate fire.

[DocH]

Steve,the question wasn't for me,but in ref to the second question,"locking the elbow into the floating rib",I've done it this way for quite some time. I can get accurate repeat shots that way. Now I have a question. I may be all wet on this but it seems when using this position I don't have to "turret" the body quite as far as with the other positions to get hits on multiple targets. Does it make that much difference or could I be using lateral movement of the firing arm in conjunction with the turret movement? I never thought about it until I thought about your question to Guantes.
I'm gonna have to pay attention to this next range session to see what I'm really doing.

[steve2267]

Now I have a question. I may be all wet on this but it seems when using this position I don't have to "turret" the body quite as far as with the other positions to get hits on multiple targets. Does it make that much difference or could I be using lateral movement of the firing arm in conjunction with the turret movement?

My honest answer: I don't know.

Could it be that you (we, other folks etc) over-turret without the arm locked in? That is, could we possibly rotate our trunk too far? For example, could our shooting arm swing too far, since it is not locked in, and our body keeps turreting as we bring the shooting arm back on target?

Another thought: speed results from economy of motion. Perhaps the QK 1/2 hip method, with the forearm locked in to the floating rib hollow, results in the least amount of motion necessary in moving from one target to the next.

It is hard for me to answer without seeing you shoot. Video footage might be helpful. I'm also curious as to what Roger, Brownie, and 7677 have to say on the matter...

[DocH]

The video is a good idea.I'll get one going and put it up for you.Maybe you can tell something from it. Thanks Steve.

[sweatnbullets]

Gloves, Everything works differently for everyone.

I teach the 1/2 hip in three positions. With the elbow locked into the ribs, on the hip, and in the gut in front of the hip. All three positions are directly related to the proximity of the threat. The further back the elbow the better the retention properties. The further forward, the better the accuracy and the further you can push the distance.

With threat focused shooting, the accuracy that is possible is dependent on the peripheral vision verification. The further forward the gun and the higher it is, the more peripheral vision verification there is. In the 1/2 hip the only position that allows peripheral vision verification is when it is locked into the gut in front of the hip, at least for me.

Now the #2 is a pure body indexed position. Some people are more accurate out of this position due to the fact that they are just more comfortable using body indexing.

I may be all wet on this but it seems when using this position I don't have to "turret" the body quite as far as with the other positions to get hits on multiple targets. Does it make that much difference or could I be using lateral movement of the firing arm in conjunction with the turret movement?

Doc, you could be moving your arm in conjuction with the turret. Or the difference could be that you are able to acquire your centerline better with your elbow further forward. This would really change the geometry of the technique.

My pea brain thinks.....damn that hurt!:p

[7677]

As the speed of the rounds increases, the convulsive grip becomes very important.

[DocH]

Thanks SNB. I'll still try to get vid on the next session.

[kilogulf59]

While tinkering I noticed something and wondered if anyone else has had the same experience.

While shooting 1/2 hip @ 5yds it is easy to keep the rounds where I want them and tight at a 1-2 rds/sec rate. When the rate jumps to 3+ rds/sec accuracy and grouping goes to hell in a handbag. Shooting from the #2 retention position, gun at about 45d with butt against ribs, it is much easier to keep an on target tight group at a 3+ rds/sec rate.

The gun snugged against the ribs seems to give it much more stability than just a single hand at a rapid fire rate. Anyone else noticed this?

The reason I brought it up is from what I have seen and read the #2 is usually relegated to the 0-2yd range.

Next time I will try it out to 10 yds.


Pardon my ignorance here but what is the #2 position?

Is there a #1 and #3? :o

[steve2267]

Pardon my ignorance here but what is the #2 position?

Is there a #1 and #3? :o
#2 is most often referred to as a retention position. While I am using the moniker a bit loosely, the Modern Technique folks taught a draw stroke where you pull the gun up vertically out of the holster. As the gun clears the holster, the muzzle is rotated from vertical to oughly horizontal. This position, where the gun is roughly adjacent to your pectoralis major muscle, is what most people refer to the #2 position -- a retention position. The gun can be fired from here, and is generally considered to be accurate from 0-2 yards based on body indexing. Some people have variations on this position. For example, SouthNarc likes to keep his firing hand thumb high and index that thumb on the pect muscle. This keeps the slide of a semi-auto slightly away from the chest, and helps prevent the slide from tangling with clothing during the recoil cycle. Other folks, like our 7677 (if memory serves), like to cant the gun outwards at roughly a 45 degree angle with the butt of the pistol grip firmly planted on the pect muscle. This position also keeps the slide clear of clothing (somewhat better it would seem to me), but may permit faster firing with the butt of the gun firmly planted or affixed to one's upper rib cage / chest muscle.

I think the Modern Technique drawstroke has traditionally been taught on a four count:
obtain firing grip on the gun
draw gun out and rotate towards target
weakhand joins firing hand as you thrust the weapon out towards the target
full extensionA couple notes: the weakhand moves at the same time as the stronghand moves to the grip of the gun; Cooper originally taught the base of the weakhand to index on the sternum with the fingers pointing downwards and the thumb pointing towards the target (or something like that); others teach the weakhand to be palm flat against the sternum; others may want you to make a fist against the sternum. Still others may have decided that 4 counts were not enough, so they teach and advocate a six step count. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has an 8 or 10 step count.

To me, after picking Brownie's brain, Dave James brain, Guantes brain, and speaking with Roundeyesamurai... drawing is really simple: scoop the gun out with your fingers, and elbow up, elbow down. How many steps is that? Who cares!? To draw to a #2 position, scoop the gun out with your fingers (your elbow naturally goes up), but instead of forcing / slamming your elbow down, you just rotate the gun towards the target. With modern holsters (belt, IWB, pancake etc), after yanking the gun out of the holster, the gun will already be at the #2 position hightwise, just rotate the muzzle towards the target. If you are using a lowride holster ala Guantes' favorite... and you are drawing to the so-called #2 position, then you would have to pull the gun up a lot higher after clearing leather.

Hope this helps. Roger probably can add to what I've said here, and correct any of my mistakes.

[Guantes]

" then you would have to pull the gun up a lot higher after clearing leather."

If you were going to the #2, other wise just shoot over the top of the holster.

[steve2267]

" then you would have to pull the gun up a lot higher after clearing leather."

If you were going to the #2, other wise just shoot over the top of the holster.

Woops! You are absolutely correct. I modified my earlier post to clarify the context there.

[Dave James]

Well no need for me to add,, looks to have been covered

[kilogulf59]

Gentlemen, thank you for the clarification.

"If you are using a lowride holster ala Guantes' favorite... and you are drawing to the so-called #2 position, then you would have to pull the gun up a lot higher after clearing leather."

Question: Should that be a Hi-ride holster? If Guantes' uses a low-ride why would he have to pull the weapon so high? Or is that so he's in the correct position relative to the chest?

[steve2267]

"If you are using a lowride holster ala Guantes' favorite... and you are drawing to the so-called #2 position, then you would have to pull the gun up a lot higher after clearing leather."

Question: Should that be a Hi-ride holster? If Guantes' uses a low-ride why would he have to pull the weapon so high? Or is that so he's in the correct position relative to the chest?

I'm guessing that Guantes, a self-avowed speed freak, prefers the low-ride holster because he is faster with it. Think about it: if speed comes from economy of motion, then if the holster is lower -- near where the hand naturally falls at the side, then the hand has less distance to travel to scoop out the sidearm than if it is in a high ride IWB or belt holster or pancake holster. Guantes has also mentioned that he will often fire at what he calls 1/4 hip -- basically, just as the gun clears the holster he rotates it onto target and fires. I'm guessing his elbow is probably still in the up position in elbow up, elbow down.


Or is that so he's in the correct position relative to the chest?
Yes, I believe that is the case.

[sweatnbullets]

Hope this helps. Roger probably can add to what I've said here, and correct any of my mistakes.

Steve you have done very well.

Since there are more than one way to skin a cat I'm going to cover Southnarcs 2 just a little more. He combines the flagged thumb and the pectoral index with the muzzle canted downward at 45 degrees. The support side arm can be used in the an offensive manner which is the horizontal elbow or a defensive manner which is the vertical elbow (or flinch.)

There are other varients of the support side arm out there connected with SN's 2.

There is a bit of debate between the the flagged thumb and the canting of the weapon outward as 7677 suggests. I believe that the decision between the two comes down to climate and amount of clothing that you may need to be wearing. The flagged thumb may not leave enough clearance for a "Down jacket." The point is everyone needs to find out what works best for them in their situation. But, if you have recently moved from a warm climate to a cold climate (Gloves) you need to take the extra clothing into account.

I have some pictures of all of these position, they are on my old computer. When I can get the time to send them over to the new one, I'll post them.

[Guantes]

EU/ED is a product of high ride holsters.

Elbow movement during a drawstroke is dependent on the height, type and cant of the holster used.

With a high ride holster, the only way for the hand to raise the gun high enough to clear the holster is for the elbow to be raised via the shoulder/arm joint, passing the #2 position during the drawstroke. Type of holster and cant have little affect on the elbow movement necessary to draw the gun.

With a low ride holster the elbow movement is determined more by the type and cant of the holster. With a breakfront type (Hoyt) there is virtually no elbow movement. All the movement is from the elbow down as the hand and lower arm sweep the gun forward out of the holster and up to a firing position (about half hip).

With a low ride holster of the conventional type, the cant determines the elbow movement. If the holster is vertical with no forward cant (muzzle forward, also know as a gunfighter cant) there is some upward movement of the elbow required to draw the gun. If the holster has a forward cant, the only movement of the elbow is to the rear, with the movement of the forearm (from the elbow down) providing sufficient elevation to raise the gun from the holster to firing position (about quarter or close hip).

The only reason to go to the #2 with a low ride holster is for retention or if that position is desired for firing.

With a high ride holster, you pass through the #2 position during the drawstroke.

[kilogulf59]

Thank you all...you guys are a fountain of knowledge.

Oh, one more question, if I may, does anyone have the winning numbers for the Wisconsin lottery tonight?

[Brownie]

"The gun snugged against the ribs seems to give it much more stability than just a single hand at a rapid fire rate. Anyone else noticed this?"

Yes G, I find the same thing, and if you look at contact points [ the more the better for stability ], in the #2, you have the end of the foream, the wrist, and perhaps even the butt of the gun touching the torso. Seems to make sense it would be more stable than a single hand technique like FAS 1/2 hip.

"The QK 1/2 hip brings the elbow further forward than the classic Fairbairn 1/2 hip position, but enables very fast shots, especially transitioning between different targets by simply turreting your upper body."

As everyone has noticed when they start to shoot multiple threats and perform the two side by side Steve. Again, "why" would seem to need answering and we can look again at contact points and indexing geometries between the two.

In FAS, the elbow is slapped on the side of the hip and the contact point is the side of the elbow only. It allows the elbow to "float" under recoil, hence it can be a problematic in this regard. One contact point.

With QK hip, the elbow locked into the pocket in front of the hip bone, you have two contact points. The elbows point on the hip and the tricept/back of the arm touching the torso the full length of the upper arm. Thats a very stable platform once locked in. Not just two contact points, but the second contact points is the full length of the upper arm on the torso [ the bearing surface is huge compared to all others in this regard ].

More bearing surface=more stability=being able to shoot faster without disruption or the resultant consequences of the groups opening up. Also, the elbow locked into the front of the hip stabilizes/reduces the elbow point moving anywhere under recoil except straight back into the "pocket". Thats why you, Roger and others have seen two rapid shots fired this way are about 1 inch apart and sometimes can be touching.

"As far as the use, a personal thing. It seemed like it would be nice to have one thing that would work from retention out to 5-7 yds with no movement but the finger, that would support rapid, accurate fire."

Having 25 years on QK hip shooting, I am not prone to use a pure retention position unless really jammed up and then I'm likely to use EU/ED over a high retention, again because of years on the one over the other and it works for me.

G, one of the members here, RJS, took to QK hip so well when out here with me, he had to try it at 15 and 21 feet himself. He made incredible hits. I've actually shown QK hip to past that with every round finding the torso, but I sure am not going to be using it at those distances [ it's not desingned for it, nor would it be necessary unless far behind the curve and in the open with no one else to worry about for backdrop IMO ].

"I may be all wet on this but it seems when using this position I don't have to "turret" the body quite as far as with the other positions to get hits on multiple targets"

Thats a valid observation Doc, one I've come to see myself over the years. If we look at FAS vs QK hip, the end of the lever[ the gun ] in QK hip being farther from the body, the same movement at the torso will move the end of the lever further. Simple physics and geometry really. The less the torso has to move to get to a point the faster it gets there, and the faster the shots can be made.

I also believe that QK hip, due to the superior contact points over FAS is more conducive to accurate and faster shooting without disruption in any way from recoil or moving the upper torso [ the turreting effect ].

"Another thought: speed results from economy of motion. Perhaps the QK 1/2 hip method, with the forearm locked in to the floating rib hollow, results in the least amount of motion necessary in moving from one target to the next."

Steve, see above

"As the speed of the rounds increases, the convulsive grip becomes very important."

Spot on as usual 7677. I find the same thing and the faster I shoot the tighter I hold onto that grip. It just came naturally to do so over the years, the body telling me I needed more recoil control and thats how it is obtained.

[Guantes]

B,
Thank You for the clarifications.
I will definitely be doing some tinkering in this area and will let you know how it goes.
Thanks again,
G

The validity of these techniques was brought home again last night. I was watching an Incredible Videos show. It showed an ex-con trying to take away a cop's gun during a traffic stop. On the passenger side of the veh they struggled, with the cop eventually regaining control. He fired two shots in close proximity (less than 6'), then eleven more (one hand extended ((point shoulder)) ) as the susp ran away. His partner also fired several shots. In all in the neighborhood of fifteen shots, from 0' to ??yds, without a single hit.

[DocH]

Thanks for the clarification,also.I thought I was thinking right on that but it never hurts to get another opinion.
And ,congratulations on the successful class in Philly.I read the reviews.Fantastic.

[Brownie]

Thanks for the thoughts on the Pa class Doc, everyone had a great time including 7677 and myself.

They were very open minded and performed the techniques admirably. We look forward to returning there this summer, each of them is bringing a friend next time:D

[DocH]

Brownie,they're all bringing a friend? Uh-oh.This desease is spreading fast.
I hear there's no cure.Let's hope that's true.:)

[7677]

The first problem I see with using a generic term such as the #2 is a different picture of a technique pops into everyone head. The #2 position is usually now identified with the trainer that advocates it. For example the #2 position I was trained in the academy differs from what Snarc currently teaches.

Currently there are four #2 positions that I know of that are being taught. The original #2 I was taught was to bring the gun up to the number two position and fire. After several jams caused by clothing and the slide hitting the body, the position was changed. The pistol was turned on its side and the base plate of the magazine was placed against the ribs. The #2 taught by Snarc uses the flagged thumb to accomplish the same goal as placing the base plate against the ribs. The latest version I was shown by Pete in Philly was to bring the elbow back and this automatically tilts the base plate of the magazine towards the ribs. I’m going to have to play his this technique some more to be able to comment on its merits.

Now that I done my writing duty and made Dave James head hurt I’ll get to the meat of this thread.


How do all of these fit into our toolbox and can they co- exist?

EU/ED vs #2

I use EU/ED for extreme close quarters combat when coming from the holster. My objective in these situation is to explode off the line and to drive my off hand forearm into my opponent’s throat and to drive him back. While I’m doing this, my strong hand draws the weapon EU/ED and I zipper up the body. My off hand is high and my shooting hand is low out of the line of sight. However, students come with baggage. Some baggage is good some of it is bad and my job as instructor is to fix what is broken not what works. I’m simply a source of knowledge. For those students that learned the high draw and automatically go to a high #2 position. I recommend placing the base plate against the ribs. There are students that have trained with or read Snarc’s work and I’m asked my opinion on it and my answer is…it works just as well. The two problems I’ve encountered with the high #2 position is: bringing the gun into your opponent’s field of view make it easier to jam before the muzzle gets on target. The second is the position of the hands. Both hands are at the same level which may or may not result in shooting of ones hands and to avoid this the shooter has to shoot down in to their opponent. With this said, I do use the #2 postion, but just not from the draw. If I’m at full extension and I have to bring the weapon back to a retention position, I normally bring it back to the #2 position.

EU/ED vs QK EU/ED

Again, EU/ED is used for extreme close quarters dynamic combat and out to 5 yards, where as QK EU/ED is used when the distances open up outside of 3 yards and the shooter decides he is going to stand and deliver. Both techniques work in this area but the QK is more stable as the body turrets with the elbow locked in. This technique is great for multiple adversaries. In the end, it all comes down to tools in the toolbox and what fits the shooter best.

[Dave James]

:p Rememeber EU/ED, was thought to make a smaller tighter platform to fire from, the old way is for the Elbow to be in tight against the bottom of the rib cage, forearm along the side pressed in,, some prefer the elbow futher back and the forearm into the rib cage, either works, for some a small crouch during the draw helps,, I like this zipper tech as it allows you to fire as the hand/arm/elbow pushes foreward, and ouch it straight on out to two handed hold and sights,, when SN and I have talked about it we have agree to disagree, he believes his is smoother less moves and I the other..

I have found over ther years that those whoare rather rotund :p , can not bring the weapon foreward enough to lock into the hollow in front of the hip, and it works better for them to just slide the elbow back.. Its strange but I tend to believe it works a little better with revolvers, than semi's,, may be the grip angle..

One thing not discussed to often with EU/ED, is the need for the wrist to be locked and the muscles tense thru the whole arm and strong side chest

[7677]

when SN and I have talked about it we have agree to disagree, he believes his is smoother less moves and I the other..

Dave,
I've has similar discussions with SN and for people that have put in the time and mastered what I call the high draw the #2 is smoother to them. That is the greatest thing I find about shooting is I can pick and choose what works for me and what doesn't. And, just because I don't choose to use something does not make it any less effective then what other people are using. I like to try and see new things and I invite SN and others to post their experiences/views on these subjects. While I might not agree with them on every point, I do respect their views and ways of doing things. What fun would life be if everyone were the same?

[Dave James]

Yep I tend to find the same thing among those who will take the time to discuss ,instead of cuss the author..

Mr.Bryce once told me while training,, "It isn't the only way,,,Its the sure way"

[Brownie]

Mr.Bryce once told me while training,, "It isn't the only way,,,Its the sure way"

Now how can you argue with that clarity of thinking? :)

[sweatnbullets]

Modern Techniques Close Contact (#2)

[sweatnbullets]

Side view of the MT close contact (#2)

[sweatnbullets]

FAS half hip

[sweatnbullets]

FAS half hip frontal view

[sweatnbullets]

FAS Three Quarter hip

[sweatnbullets]

FAS Three quarter hip frontal

[sweatnbullets]

Southnarc #2 with the horizontal elbow (the gun maybe pointed down more that it should, which is 45 degrees)

[sweatnbullets]

Southnarc #2 with the horizontal elbow frontal

[sweatnbullets]

Southnarc #2 with the verticle elbow (the flinch)

[sweatnbullets]

Southnarc #2 with the vertical elbow frontal

[sweatnbullets]

On the SN #2, The angle that the gun is pointed downward is a bit deceiving. It is suppose to be 45 degrees. My position appears to be more that that. The consistancy of the angle and the position is determined by the "high elbow", once you get the maximum range on your high elbow you know exactly where your bullets will impact.

Even with my "high elbow" the bullets will impact a 5' 10" adversary in the abdomen at contact distances. This is just the begining of the shooting, there will be follow up shots that will zipper upwards as I create distance.

As southnarc says "this is just one way, not the only way." So let us all keep that in mind and find out what works best for you and your personal situation.:)

[kilogulf59]

Roger,

Thank you and very nice work.

It occurs to me that the #2 retention position should be compared to the 1/4 or close hip.

[InTheBlack]

SweatB- the barrel of that gun is waaay too shiny. You aren't shooting enough;)

re QK Hip: There are two different positions described below. Did Steve mis-speak or is it individual preference? One is above my belt & the other below; all I know is that putting the point of my elbow _on_ the belt is no good, not stable. I got best results hunching forward enough to go below.

I think the turret works good that way because my elbow is touching my hip bone, so my arm is locked directly onto where the motion originates. And since my arm is long, like a lever, a little hip swivel gives a lot of horizontal movement.

>>>
Steve2267 said:
Another thought: speed results from economy of motion. Perhaps the QK 1/2 hip method, with the forearm locked in to the floating rib hollow, results in the least amount of motion necessary in moving from one target to the next.
>>>
Brownie said:
With QK hip, the elbow locked into the pocket in front of the hip bone, you have two contact points. The elbows point on the hip and the tricept/back of the arm touching the torso the full length of the upper arm. Thats a very stable platform once locked in. Not just two contact points, but the second contact points is the full length of the upper arm on the torso [ the bearing surface is huge compared to all others in this regard ].
>>>

[Brownie]

INB,

Steve described it using the word "forearm" locked into the front of the hip "floating rib hollow", instead of the elbow. In reality, the forearm is locked into the hips "pocket", that hollow, by way of the elbow. It could be described either way, but being more specific about the elbow would probably have had more clarity in the context he used it in.

The slight bend 'hunch" is how I perform it. It is not part of QK hip unless one has to perform that to get the elbow locked into that pocket. The main idea is getting the point of the elbow locked on the front of the hip joint and based on body structure, some with lean slightly foreard [ hunch ] and some will need less of that to accomplish the technique.