1911A1 Makers

[kilogulf59]

Recently my buddy got bit by the 1911 bug. So, since I own an old Government Model, he asked me which pistol he should get (there's an easy one to answer).

Basically he wants a G.I. type...no frills and I really don't blame him for this. It will be an all-around pistol.

I came up with two so far, Auto-Ordnance and Springfield Armory, that make G.I. type pistols. Also, I told him I'd ask the experts.

Experience with either of these pistols?

Any other suggestions?

I'd like him to get a .45 then I can shoot it...hehehe.

Thanks people.

[Dave James]

I like and own a Springfield,

[DocH]

I have a lightly customed Colt Combat Gov't that I've had for years.
Everybody makes a 1911 now.I'm really not into them anymore but I bought a Rock Island Armory a few months back,mainly at the behest of my son. We both decided we wanted a plain jane no frills 1911 style,litle bitty sights and no full length guide rod. It's worked out good so far.It's about the cheapest one on the market but have had no issues with it. Brownie has one.
Mine is not a carry gun ,but simply a toy. However ,as well as it's worked so far I would carry it without reservation if it came to that.
You can really take your pick.I havn't kept up with them since going to Glocks,but I hear good things and bad about them all.I believe the Para Ordnance pistols are right up there too. Know several officers who own them and really like them.

Edited to add: I had a Springfield about 20 years ago,no issues with it either.

[Larry]

I too have been bitten by the 1911 bug so I'm in the market.

Springfields seem to have a good reputation, but being made in Brazil bothers me a bit.

S&W's 1911s seem to have a great repuation.

Colts have alot of fans who swear they're the best

Heck, even Sig is making a 1911 I know nothing about...

I'd sure appreciate some guidance in picking a 1911.

[kilogulf59]

Thanks guys...

Since, as I said, it will be an all-around gun, I pushed him a bit towards the Springfield as I felt the quality would be better than some of the less expensive makes. We'll see what he decides.

Larry, I wouldn't let the Brazil thing bother me. Who doesn't own foreign made products? Heck I own a Glock, two Berettas and a Belgium made FN Hi-Power and I couldn't ask for better pieces.

Also Larry, the problem buying a 1911 today is not just which brand but which variation or model of 1911 do you want? My Bud wants a G.I. type and I own an old Government Model MkIV Series 70.

If I were buying one today...I'd probably get the G.I. Springfield model. I'm a K.I.S.S. type so, IMHO, fancy finishes and "bells & whistles" never saved anyones life. Good luck.

Doc, I'll mention the Rock Island to him...thanks.

[steve2267]

For a no-thrills, basic, GI type 1911, I'd recommend, more or less in the following order:

Springfield GI model
Rock Island Armory
Auto Ordance / Thompson (owned by Kahr)
Springfield Mil-spec


Springfield frames are made in Brazil by Imbel (if memory serves). They pistols are finished here in the USA in Illinois. Springfield has a very good reputation, have been making 1911s for a long time, and their 1911s carry a lifetime limited warranty.

Rock Island Armory pistols are made in the Phillipines, supposedly on original Colt machinery. But I think I've seen mention of CNC machining being used on RIA pistols... so they may have moved past, or added additional steps past the Colt machining. Brownie has a RIA Government model and really likes it. I will defer to him on RIA specifics and trust that he will correct any mistakes I may have made.

Kahr bought Auto Ordance (and along with AO, the Thompson brand name, including the Tommy gun -- semi-auto only, though). I used to read that Auto Ordnance 1911s were spotty. But since purchasing AO, I've read pretty good reports of any Kahr-made 1911. I think Kahr updated the AO manufacturing methods with the introduction of CNC machining etc. IMO, CNC machining should result in better quality control -- all parts should be the same size plus or minus a tight tolerance. CNC machining can be used to create a tight fitting frame <-> slide fit on a 1911... which is NOT necessarily conducive to a reliable 1911, however. A certain amount of rattle or slop is desireable in a fighting 1911, IMO, and does not necessarily imply poor accuracy.

Colt should be added to the above list, but you will pay a LOT more for the Colt that any of the above pistols. If you or your friend wants a genuine 1911, or has to have a Colt... then there you go.

I always have held 1911s high on the backstrap, and military spur hammers ALWAYS bite the web of my shooting hand. Also, I was taught the thumbs forward grip with the shooting thumb pushing down on an extended safety... so, for better or for worse, all my 1911s have to have:

high rise beavertail
commander hammer of some sort
extended thumb safety


Next I'd want a lowered and flared ejection port, and then a flared magazine well. Polish the feed ramp and I'm good to go. I can take or leave a full length guide rod... and sights? Since QK... sights are optional. OK, just kidding... but I'm finding I really like the older military GI sights (read: really low profile). If the sights are Heinie Eights or Novaks or Millet or whatever... I can use those too. However, a nice square blade on the back of the pistol makes for easier one-handed manipulations of the pistol (read: hook rear sight blade on belt or pocket and rack the slide one handed).

Hope this helps.

[Desert Rat]

Definitely a big thumbs up to the Rock Island Armory guns. These pistols might be inexpensive, but the quality of the guns I've seen is excellent. I've fired about seven hundred rounds through mine so far without a single malfunction. This is good performance, as far as I'm concerned.

Armscorp has a great customer service reputation, and they stand by their product. Blackdragon on the 1911 forum is their rep, and seems to be very concerned with his customers being happy with their purchases.

The fit and finish of my gun is excellent, and the slide-to-frame tolerances are tighter on my Rock than on either my Colt 1991A1 or my Combat Commander. I liked mine enough to have it cutomized slightly by adding a Wilson speed hammer and beavertail grip safety to eliminate the hammer bite I usually experience with GI spur hammers, and I'm going to have some Novak sights installed in a couple of months.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend these guns to anyone wanting a bare-bones, no-frills GI 1911. I'm actually looking at a Compact model I found at a local gun store. It feels good in the hand, and it's looking like I might just get it.

As far as Springfields Armory guns go, the ones I've seen in action and shot were excellent, good quality guns. You couldn't go wrong with one of those either.

[RAM]

My father has a Springfield GI w/Park finish.

Advantages: Shoots a BIG bullet! Inexpensive to buy. Nostalgic look!

Disadvantages: Shoots a big bullet/Expensive to operate, Small Sights are VERY difficult for my aging eyes to acquire quickly (when needed), small ejection port-malfunctions once in a while/too often.

If you want a Springer 1911 they have a loaded model that includes a lot of the latest improvements for a decent price, I have known several people very happy with them.

Except for the "nostalgia thing" I would not buy an old style "GI" type 1911.

If he is at all interested in reliability for a reasonable price, tell him to buy a glock and be done with it, they work very well right out of the box.
Not trying to start an argument here:eek:

[kilogulf59]

Well as usual you people have been a wealth of knowledge, thank you.

I'll pass along all this information and leave it up to him.

The Colt I have was my late fathers. Being a Toolmaker/CNC Specialist, I did much of the work Steve suggested. I didn't change the hammer though, just shortened and reshaped it a bit, installed a long trigger and flat mainspring housing. A "gunsmith" did a ramp and throat, a little excessive in my opinion but it works. Later I found out, through an NRA book, that all I had to do was relieve the chamber at the ramp juncture a bit and polish the ramp. Apparently a QC problem at Colt in the 70's, the chamber actually over hung the ramp approximately .030" or so.

The only thing we never got around to was replacing the collet bushing with a solid type however, I'm digressing again...

RAM, no argument here, I do have a G30 and love it. I also love Browning's designs but feel the Glocks have the edge. As for my Buddy...he's a Browning type, big time.

Now if Glock would make a Commander size pistol....maybe?

Anywho...Thanks to all.

[Larry]

Lots of good feedback in this thread, very helpful in my 1911 quest.

Colt has a stainless M1991A1 that is a real looker. It can be found for about $675 + shipping & FFL fee. I don't see many Colts in the cases at gun shops, but plenty of Kimbers, Springfields and S&Ws.

Springfields certainly are popular on gun forums. I shouldn't make such a big deal out of Brazilian manufacturing I guess. I own a CZ rifle and a Walther pistol afterall.

The G.I. model has the dinky sights and higher ejection port, while the Mil-Spec gets 3-dot sights and flared/lowered ejection port. Seems like the Mil-Spec would be a nice upgrade as a shooter, right?

For a no-thrills, basic, GI type 1911, I'd recommend, more or less in the following order:
1) Springfield GI model
2) Rock Island Armory
3) Auto Ordance / Thompson (owned by Kahr)
4) Springfield Mil-spec


What makes the G.I. a better choice than the Mil-Spec. I can see it has the nostalgic no-frills look, but shouldn't the Mil-Spec be a better shooter?

[Brownie]

RIA's are short money and run as well as any gov45 I've had. They also have one of the best warranties out there if there is a problem. Ivan takes care of his customers.

I recently sold mine to a SAR operator that I'm on with to finance the second G26. I sold it as I have several gov45's already, not for ay other reason. It ran with any of the big dogs I've owned or presently own.

My personal suggestion for a no frills GI 45 would be the RIA or the SA milspec models. If they want larger fixed sights, I'd get the Milspec, the GI has the tiny sights.

I don't use sights so I like the dinky sights, less obtrusive and less distractionary. :cool: The original GI sights [ the nubs ] are all I own. The milspec plain vanilla models run more reliably from my experience over the last 30 years.

Auto Ordinance used to have a bad rep for reliability and poor quality, but since they have been bought out like Steve mentioned, they have come into their own and can be relied on if you get a newer one. I'd stay away from an original unless you like to visit your local gunsmith regularly.

If I had to choose 1 gov45 to own and only one, I would take one of the SA milspec model over all others. Thats just my personal flavor based on several I've owned and one since the mid 80's that has never let me down and was just rebuilt this year. If I take a gov45 out for serious social work now, it is that one that gets the nod.

[steve2267]

For a no-thrills, basic, GI type 1911, I'd recommend, more or less in the following order:
1) Springfield GI model
2) Rock Island Armory
3) Auto Ordance / Thompson (owned by Kahr)
4) Springfield Mil-spec

The G.I. model has the dinky sights and higher ejection port, while the Mil-Spec gets 3-dot sights and flared/lowered ejection port. Seems like the Mil-Spec would be a nice upgrade as a shooter, right?

What makes the G.I. a better choice than the Mil-Spec. I can see it has the nostalgic no-frills look, but shouldn't the Mil-Spec be a better shooter?

Larry, I was answering the original question, which I perceived as asking which was the best GI original 1911 to purchase, for as little $$ as possible. I gave the nod to the Springfield over the RIA. After hearing Brownie rave about the RIA he owned... I put it on my list of 1911s to buy... but, alas, I think RIA has stopped manufacturing their commander-model and only make the fullsize Govt or a 3.5" compact-style.

I mentioned Auto Ordnance because I've read some good things about them since Kahr bought the company.

To answer your question, yes, I would think the Springfield MilSpec to probably be the best shooter of the four brands/models listed.

On a slighly off-topic, yet related note... I've heard many people denigrate 1911s claiming that you have to spend well over a thousand dollars to get a 1911 suitable as a carry gun. IMHO, one should be able to get a very good 1911 for every day carry for well under $800. In fact, if you look carefully, I think one should be able to get a good 1911 for under $700 -- call it $650-$750 or so. Glocks don't seem to be the steal they once were and seem to be running in the $450-550 range, probably more like $500-550 in stores. So, yes, Glocks, the plastic tupperware crap that they are (:eek: :D just kidding... just kidding!) are cheaper... but the days where one could purchase two Glocks for a decent 1911 are past, IMHO.

[DocH]

Steve,you're right,this tupperware junk that I use has seen quite an increase in price.:) I'm lucky to have a dealer who still keeps the prices very close to what they once were,but he buys in large volume as he works the gun shows.
Brownie mentioned the tiny sights on the RIA. Another reason why I(we) selected this gun.Sightless shooting.I bought mine after a net discussion with Brownie about his,and have not been disappointed.
I have night sights on all the Glocks(just in case) but the RIA will not be changed. My 20 yo is developing into quite a good sightless shooter and loves the RIA. I'm a proud papa.

[steve2267]

Steve,you're right,this tupperware junk that I use has seen quite an increase in price.

I broke down and bought a used G19 with night sites when I found one for $375. They are certainly reliable guns, Glocks are... I just prefer Mr. Browning's design. :)

[DocH]

Nothing wrong with Mr Brownings design.I used 'em for years and will always have one or two. If JMB had been a musician he would have been a virtuoso.;)

[Larry]

If the S-A mil-spec is a nice package, is the 'Loaded' model even better? The Loaded offers the following options not found on the Mil-Spec:


Front slide cocking serrations

Flat serrated mainspring housing, delta lightweight hammer

Carry bevel treatment

Ambidextrous thumb safety

High-hand beavertail grip safety

Dovetail front sight

Premium fixed or adjustable rear sights

Lightweight adjustable speed trigger

Torx head grip screws


Keep in mind I don't *plan* to carry this pistol although I guess that could change. I'm looking for a range gun / fun gun and just want a 1911 in the collection.

Does the Beavertail make it more comfortable to shoot or reduce hammer bite?

I don't really care about front slide serrations or ambi-safety. I'm just trying to figure out which of these options are "worth it" and which are just frills.

[Brownie]

The slide cocking serrations are frills, and I personally think they take away from the looks of a 1911.

The carry bevel package is nice, the gun feels like butter with no sharp edges. It's personal preference there.

Beavertail grip safeties are not on my guns, and I find them unnecessary, but others find them the opposite due to hammer bite with the original hammers on 1911's.

Ambi safeties are not to my tastes, but if you are left handed or plan to shoot it extensively that way, a worthwhile option. The ambi can hang on clothing and disengage the safety while carrying, I don't like allowing Mr. Murphy to rear his head unless it is necessary.

I can take or leave the flat mainspring, it's more personal preference there as well. Some like the arched more for pointability, others do not.

Stick with fixed sights, they are less prone to damage if dropped or banged around some.

Adjustable speed triggers can be problematic but not usually. Again, why give Mr. Murphy and opening.

Grip screws make no difference in the least as strictly for "looks".

[kilogulf59]

Boy, for a minute there I thought this was going to turn into a 1911 vs. Glock thing.....whewwww (wiping brow).

Actually, the only reason anything was done to my Dad's Government Model was it only fed ball ammo reliably and dented the brass upon ejection. I've shot many 1911's over the years and, for myself, the old stock models (G.I. & Gov.)were fine. Not that the custom and new models (custom from the factory) aren't sweet.

Sometimes I think people think they need (or just want to say they have) a custom pistol. Read enough gun magazines and that can happen.

I now realize that a box-stock pistol will kill yeah just as dead as a $2500 custom pistol will. Assuming they are both equally reliable and that's truly all a handgun needs is 100% reliability. Everything else is, at best, secondary or, at the least, a non issue.

Anyway, back to the topic. I'm pushing for the Springfield Mil-Spec as I think its the best bang for the buck and is the one I believe I would buy.

It's early...I need coffee...see ya later...

PS...Larry, get your own thread, this one's mine...:D