Switching Hands?

[Rob Pincus]

I did a quick search, but will admit that I did not exhaustively go through every thread... if this has been addressed thoroughly, please just link me to the right place.

I saw that CAR recommends switching hands in the middle of an ambush moment at the onset of a dynamic critical incident in the following example:

Right handed shooter, attacked from his right side at a 90 degree angle.

If that is true, I have one question:

:eek: Huh?:confused:

(that was me simulating a traditional student when I suggest something whacky like "don't look at your sights for a man sized target at 10 feet")

I'm interested in the justification, accounting for how fast things happen and somehow making me feel better about the possibility of the attackee dropping/fumbling the gun during the switch.

[David Williams]

Rob -

I wouldn't say that CAR recommends switching hands in the middle of an ambush. While the system does allow for switching hands extremely fast, we don't recommend that anyone try to do so until they have the time. Why invite disaster?

However, one of the pillars of the CAR system is that there's not just one way to do anything, so it's up to the student to decide how to react to a dynamic situation. If a student is confident in their ability to transition and he decides that he would rather switch hands than turn, then that's up to him. As always, situation dictates.

With that said, the transition is extremely fast and smooth - I don't think I've ever seen anyone drop their weapon while executing it.

Hope that helps!

[Rob Pincus]

Has the technique ever been used in a real critical incident?

[David Williams]

I'm still waiting! ;)
I know several of the other CAR techniques have been used real-world, but I'm not so sure about this one.

Honestly, I believe that most students choose to blade to the threat rather than switch hands... for obvious reasons. Using your words, the moment of "critical incident" is not the time to worry about transitioning hands, in my opinion. I teach that the transition is better used to adjust to a developing environment or situation (open door, short wall, use of cover, etc) than as a reaction to being engaged.

In truth, here's what I believe will happen in a real ambush -
Depending on the person's level of training (read: extensive FoF) I believe that at the moment of surprise contact to the exposed side the shooter is more likely to push the weapon out into modified Iso/Weaver and then re-blade to the threat.

[Rob Pincus]

I agree.. . Thanks for the clarifications.

[Bryn Reynolds]

I am certainly glad I found this Forum, and the C.A.R./I.P.D.S. sub in particular. I hope to chime on with my 2-cents on some of these topics and hopefully stir up increased discussion.

I agree with Dave on his points posted above about switching hands. I have practiced the hands transitions thousands of times but have not yet had to transition to a live armed BG that was 180 Deg. to my rear. Hopefully I never have to. Would I turn bladed or simply transition without using my feet? I don't know.

I DO use the hands transitions quite often in room clearing, entries, etc. It works perfectly at minimizing my silhouette when having to do a modified pie slice when entering a hallway or adjacent room while exiting a room that was just cleared. For example, if I need to make a right turn out of a room into a hallway, the weapon is transitioned into my left hand and the pie slice made. If a left exit, weapon goes into my right hand.

Another situation in which it works well is when you enter a "short room" (i.e. bathroom, closet; a small room that doesn't need another trailer to enter with you.) You take a step or two in, see the room is clear, and intstead of using a lot of foot movement to turn around and exit you just do a hand transition, exit, and fall back into the stack while picking up your area of responsibility as you proceed.

Also, shield work almost demands that you transition hands in order not to expose much of yourself as you cover either the left side of the shiled: i.e.: covering out of the left side of shield, weapon is in left hand, right side, just the opposite.

Also, the transitioning of hands works wonderfully while covering your 360 deg. environment while sitting in a motor vehicle. I am really not sure if it could be done so effectively if you didn't transition.

It takes some practice, as with anyting, but one can become amazingly fast at this technique. I'll try to post some additional clips soon on my website.

One drill that I like to show those interested in C.A.R. that are coming over from Iso-Weaver is a three target, 12 round drill. (One has to have a range that can be safely shot 270 degs., however.) It highlights the lessened recoil advantages and also how hand transitions can minimize footwork.

Ist target is placed to immediate front 10yds. or less.
2nd to immediate left, 90 degrees to left
3rd to immediate right, 90 to right.
I then have them engage 2 body, 2 head to each target, starting center, then right, then left. Those firing Iso-Weaver will usually of course fire two body, two head to the center target and will have to reaquire between each shot. They then usually take a couple circular steps to the right to engage the right target, again having to reaquire between each shot because of recoil.

Now, the leftmost target is to their immediate rear so they have to turn 180 degrees around to face it and engage it. Fast, with no misses, is usually 7-8 seconds. By shooting C.A.R. for this drill you can get the benefit of no recoil and not having to reaquire. Also, for the 180 degree shot you have to do no footwork as you simply do a hands transition. Ususally the drill can be completed successfully with no misses in 3 seconds or so, and that really opens some eyes.

It is a great technique to have in one's kit.

I look forward to hearing you thoughts and further discussions on this technique and other facets of the C.A.R. system...

Bryn

[JMusic]

I can't say we switched hands that much. It really wasn't taught then, the primary concern being to keep the weapon at the ready without it being easily taken away. What we did do was switch left hand, right hand people for first in taking into account room layout and how the door opened. I really would like to take a CAR course so I know more about what you guys are talking about.

Jim

[evan1293]

This sounds like a pretty good drill. I'll try it my next time out. One question though.... You stand squared up for the 1st target, correct? This would be a good drill for someone like myself that shoots iso and CAR. I can engage target one from iso and switch hands for the side targets while shooting CAR.

[David Williams]

Evan -
You will have a more difficult transition if you start off from Iso/Weaver; the motion will be cumbersome and overtly conscious. To maximize the economy of motion we suggest starting off in one of the CAR stances, bladed to the target. The movement is much more natural and contained this way. Remember, Bryn is talking about <10yd distances...the need for the smoother, faster transition becomes more apparent as you close the distance to the target.

[mercop]

After using the system for a while switching hands is very instinctive and comfortable.

[evan1293]

So your bladed toward target #1 and your back is towards target #3? For engaging targets at your immediate front would you then suggest having your legs squared up but your upper body rotated and engage the target from the extended position....or would you suggest moving your feet accordingly and always being bladed towards your target?

One thing I've found with the CAR system is that for engaging targets to your sides its awesome, especially for a right handed shooter moving towards his weak side, using the left hand to engage the targets is very comfortable and effective. One thing I do not feel comfortable with is shooting CAR while moving in on a target. Shooting CAR at side targets while movign is effective because your feet are always aligned in the direction of your movement. When moving towards the target, your feet are facing 45-90 degrees at an angle from your direction of movement. Moving backwards isn't as problematic becuase you can shuffle step and that works fine.

Thats a big reason why I still use ISO for some tagets and CAR for others. The transition between the two systems is very fast. Any thoughts?

[David Williams]

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f167/0311mofo/3Tgts.png

You are bladed towards T-1 and your back is to your traditionally "weak" side. If you are left-handed, then your back will be somewhat towards T-3, if you are right-handed then your back will be somewhat towards T-2.

I am not sure I understand why you feel comfortable engaging targets to the side while moving but do not feel comfortable engaging forward while moving. Your feet are always oriented to the direction of movement, no matter which direction you are moving. This is one of the fundamental concepts of movement, whether you are using CAR or not. When you change the direction of your bladed stance, your shoulders, hips, and feet all change with you.

It sounds like you may need to develop your footwork; you can blade to T-1 and move towards it with your feet still oriented in the direction of movement.

[evan1293]

As far as movement with CAR goes: I understand what your saying but if im bladed at T-1 my feet aren't pointed at T-1 they're pointed at T-3 (If I shoot the drill starting with my preferred hand.) If I were to move forward on T-1 shooting CAR, then I would orient my feet towards T-1 but my upper half would be rotated towards my right if I were shooting with my right hand. This is why its somewhat uncomfortable because if I were moving in on T1 shooting iso, my feet, hips, and shoulders all would be aligned with T1. As far as engaging side targets, CAR is great. If I were shooting CAR and moving towards T-1 but engaging T2 or T3, my body would be oriented towards the direction of my movement but I can still easily engage either of the two side targets. This is probably the only reason why I haven't totally abandoned iso, becuase of its effectiveness for engaging tagets in front of me.

[Bryn Reynolds]

Hey guys.

As Dave said, there is no reason that one cannot be bladed toward a target while walking directly toward it: the feet are orientated and moving directly toward the target the uppper half of you body is somewhat bladed, either toward the left or right, depending on your "handedness." The upperhalf of your body is maintained as stationary as possible, of course, by "duckwalking" in order to avoid uper body bounce so you can stay on target. I can actually think of no better way to directly approach a threat: you still have the advantage of a reduced upper body target silhouette.

The drill I talked about above uses NO footwork, however. (I am well aware of the tactical advantage of moving off line and/or THROUGH a target, especially multiples, as this drill requires. The purpose of this drill is to highlight what I feel are the superior tactical advantages C.A.R. offers over other platforms.)

The hand transition allows this and the reduced/eliminated recoil allows for the drill to be completed in 1/2 to 1/3 the time is someone firing ISO. It is certainly not meant to embarass them, but certainly opens their eyes. It is the one drill that I think convinced one of our range instructors, a long-standing Weaver guy, to be totally taken in with CAR. I am now working toward getting him his Basic Operator certification. (And then I'll work on giving him his Instructor/Advanced Instructor.....I have ulterior motives here: I want him to start helping me with larger IPDS classes!)

The hand transitions DO take time to master. When I am at home (and the wife isn't) while watching TV I take a Glock and 2 empty mags and practice mag changes and hands transitions for awhile, take a break, go back, etc. The dog looks at me like I'm nuts but he got used to it with enough treat bribing.....

Talk soon, guys.

P.S Dave: While at Paul's a couple weeks ago we got a sub-30-second 6 man Castle combat course done, and that was one guy clearing a malfunction. (Of course, Paul was on the team. I'm on the right in the stick)
I posted it on my site, and it on the "Photo/Video" page.
http://www.ipdsNY.com


Bryn

[evan1293]

Bryn, Another Question on the drill. If you start bladed toward T-1, why are you changing hands? Why not shoot T1 bladed, shoot T-2 at your direct front and then shoot at your 7 o'clock at T-3 all while using your right hand (or reverse the whole thing for starting with your left hand.)? I hope I'm not be annoying, Im just curious. Thx ;)

[evan1293]

By the way, If you start the drill facing T1, I understand why you would want to use both hands.

[David Williams]

P.S Dave: While at Paul's a couple weeks ago we got a sub-30-second 6 man Castle combat course done, and that was one guy clearing a malfunction. (Of course, Paul was on the team. I'm on the right in the stick)
I posted it on my site, and it on the "Photo/Video" page.


Nice shooting, dude...27 seconds is commendable. That BBHH string sounded real clean. How come you guys didn't do the 4-man/5-target drill? I noticed the past few courses that I've helped with haven't done the original drill on the final day.

[Bryn Reynolds]

Hey Evan.

Per Dave's diagram, I am starting off shooting T1, and I am parallel with T2 and T3, equal distance from each. I am left handed. I engage T1 and then pivot on my left foot, turning to the right, so I am now bladed on T3. T2 is now completely behind me. I then transition the weapon to my right hand and don't have to move my feet at all to engage T2. That one little pivot to my right after engaging T1 is all that is needed. Excuse my cheesy diagram below, but maybe it will make it more clear:

T1


T2 (ME) T3

Dave: We did do the 6 target / 5 man drill a few times. The one I posted was just a little competition we were doing for time with other groups. We were doing some CRAZY drills:

How is this one (and this is all the same drill:)

Shot Left to right / Right to Left, transition hands each string, head shots one-handed & kneeling, tactical reload between each string, then run around target board and then form up at in a stick at "door" between each string. Each entry was a different method that you had to remember the order of and, of course, you can never end up at the same target twice. And here is the kicker: Paul would call out a # between 1-6 for each of the five strings. The person at that number started the string and then the person to their left (or right, depending on the way that string was shot) would end that string. Whew!

I'm gonna throw that one at the guys on SERT training on Monday....let the Chinese fire drill begin....LOL!

Bryn

[David Williams]

Shot Left to right / Right to Left, transition hands each string, head shots one-handed & kneeling, tactical reload between each string, then run around target board and then form up at in a stick at "door" between each string. Each entry was a different method that you had to remember the order of and, of course, you can never end up at the same target twice. And here is the kicker: Paul would call out a # between 1-6 for each of the five strings. The person at that number started the string and then the person to their left (or right, depending on the way that string was shot) would end that string. Whew!

He did a similar drill in the Adv. Instr. crse that I went through, and I've seen him do it to others when I'm there to AI... it's absolute chaos.

[Bryn Reynolds]

I even think I left out a "condition" or two...("levitate six inches off the ground on every odd number string" "find a blue dog to pet every fouth string",,,you know the deal and have been through selection for certain jobs before, Dave...)

He was getting so intricate in the COCs that I think I saw the light...we were so involved in the COCs ("change of condtions" for non-CAR/IPDS guys) that were weren't thinking about the shooting....NO ONE in my group missed a target; (and groups were tight) any mistakes were procedural only...and were moved back some from the three yard line which added another element to the "aiming"

Anyhow, talk soon. Full day of live fire entry training with the Team in the morning,,,

Bryn

[Bryn Reynolds]

Evan & Dave:

Here is a link to a Google video I posted of the above drill:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2494878762152918058&q=ipdsystems&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Hopefully it works. It is best viewed in "original size" as opposed to "full screen" mode.

T1 is about 7 yds. T2 and T3 are about 8-9 yards. A little further than I like to do the drill but they wre nonmovable targets. The time is a little slow because I wanted to ensure I had no misses.

Bryn

[evan1293]

Thanks, Bryn. I'll give that a try on monday.

[Bryn Reynolds]

No Problem. It is a fun little drill that highlight several of the C.A.R. Systems' positives all at the same time.

Now I know how to post Google vids!

Bryn