Tactical reload - which way?

[slawkas]

According to http://www.pointshooting.com/carmag.htm (thanks Matt for that link), in the C.A.R. system tactical reload goes like this:
Withdraw a charged magazine (a magazine with the bullet heads facing the front) and hold it between the index and middle fingers like a cigarette. As that hand nears the gun, activate the magazine release. Withdraw the partially used magazine with the thumb and index finger. Insert the charged magazine and press it home in one flowing movement. (Press it with the palm of the hand).

For a long time I was using this:
Withdraw a charged magazine (a magazine with the bullet heads facing the front), move it it back and hold it between the thumb and the last three fingers. As that hand nears the gun, activate the magazine release. Withdraw the partially used magazine with the thumb and the index finger. Insert the charged magazine and press it home in one flowing movement. (Press it with the palm of the hand).

Later, for some reasons, I turned to this:
Withdraw a charged magazine (a magazine with the bullet heads facing the front) and hold it between the thumb and the first two fingers. The index finger should be along the side of magazine. As that hand nears the gun, activate the magazine release. Withdraw the partially used magazine with the heel of the hand and the last two fingers. Insert the charged magazine and press it home in one flowing movement. (Press it with the thumb the base of magazine to make sure that it is locked in the place). And check it.

What is your method for tactical reload and why?

Note: Please do not take this question aggresive. Though in the C.A.R. Forum, this question is not against this system, wich I find VERY impressive. Also holding a mag between the index and middle fingers is an interesting trick and surely complete the tool kit.

[Roundeyesamurai]

I'm not too enamored of holding anything between the index and middle fingers, for the simple fact that if you're startled (and ANYONE can be startled), your hand is very likely to splay open and you'll drop whatever you were holding.

Go startle a smoker while they're holding a cigarette like that, and see what happens.

With my hands being the size that they are (size 3XL glove), I can get away with gripping the fresh magazine with the thumb, forefinger, and middle finger, and dropping the used magazine into the palm to be held by the ring and little finger. For those with normal-sized hands, I usually teach one of two other ways:

1) Obtain new magazine, drop the old magazine to the ground, insert new magazine, pick up old magazine and pocket it; or

2) Drop old magazine into hand and pocket it, then obtain and insert new magazine.

True, these are both a little slower than other techniques, but they're also alot more brainfart-proof.

[Brownie]

I carry a g17 or a 5 shot .357 hammerless S+W.

With 17 rds on board, I do not worry about reloads much in the everyday citizen world on the streets.

When I worked the streets some time ago, I carried a 1911 or a hicap 9mm. With the 1911, I had extra mags and didn't worrry about tac reloads there either.

Now that I carry a hicap, if I have to reload, and I'm in a position to think tac reload as I may need those extra rounds, I'm into something I should have stayed out of to begin with.

I've never worried about tac reloads to conserve ammo, if I thought I might not have enough for the potential situation or area I was walking into for work, I simply took more mags.

If you are changing mags on the street, there are more problems to deal with than how to save the mag you are discharging for future use to my thinking, and what may be more important, is having to take the time to perform one while you are in a world of hurt [ where time is probably not on your side to begin with ].

[Roundeyesamurai]

Brownie, that's another good argument in favor of having large capacity in the first place- when you need more, you REALLY need more, and mag changes create pauses where you can get killed pretty handily.

[Spooky8]

I concur. The days of low capacity handguns for primary street work are not what they used to be. Now don't get me wrong, large revolvers, and single stack 1911's are comendable fighting weapons; however, times have changed, the world has changed, and TACTICS, have changed.

Criminals/Terrorists are more bold, vicious, and ruthless. They carry hi-cap weapons, and so should we. When confronted with mutiple attackers such as criminal gangs and terrorists, believe me, you want all the ammo you can carry.

I can say this; I have access to great firearms/tactics instructors. One particular instructor is a Delta operator. I asked him if he carries a 1911 "O" frame when in Iraq. He said "Hell No", They carry G-19's with 30 round Mags!!
Nough said!!

I carry a G-17 with 2 extra mags on my person. I will not get into the 9mm vs .45 debate!!! I shoot and like the 9mm. Thats the way it is.

Regards to all,

Sppoky8:D

[Low Drag]

My "tac" reload...
Take the mag out of the weapon. (a bit of cover would be way cool here)
Stick it in my pocket, belt etc. (back pocket is right next to my spare mag)
Get mag out of pouch and insert, smack it home.
I now have a happy gun.

Context? I'm no longer in the Corps, I'm not in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting a war, I'm a CCW kind of guy now. I don't think I'd do a tac reload/with retention if I needed to reload in a hurry. If I needed to reload fast I figure I'd be at slide lock and I'd just drop the mag on the deck and do an IPSC speed reload while wondering what the hell I'm doing here.......So why bother making a tac reload into a race? Make it pucker proof instead.

Oh, I shoot from a C.A.R.ish stance and I won't take offense at anything yous say/post about it.....;)

[Brownie]

Low Drag,

You may no longer be in the "Corps", but you are still one of Uncle Sams Misguided Children.:eek:

Your thought process on the tac reload mirrors mine, for the same contexual reasons.

If I'm reloading, I'm in a hurry to get more rounds out period, and will not have time to be thinking about a proper tac reload in the middle of a sh#t storm.

Spooky8,

Right on the money with the SF community from my understanding as well. The hicap Glocks are highly coveted over there. Ayman was using a g-19 he took off a terr in a raid. He was badgered relentlessly for that weapon to pass it on when the end of his tour came up.

BTW- Semper Fi to both of you [ Spooky8 is one of us as well ].

another one of Uncles Sams Misguided Children

[Dave James]

You know we trained in this and I enforced it during training,, but I fell after the last big blow up I was in thats its a waste of time..

I do believe in holding on to mags if they have any rounds left,, but for me the tac would be done "now" behind cover,, so no need for speed, I like the idea of keeping the weapon charged and full tilt boogie, I just don't feel now that trying to make the hand hold a couple of mags is worth it.

[slawkas]

Carry a hi-cap weapon to avoid tac reloading. Reloading creates pauses, where you can get killed.
Carry more mags when think you may need extra ammo. Nowadays tactics is based on a great amount of ammo. Think also about possible multiple attackers.
When you are in a position you have to think about tac reload, you've got a real problem and better think how to deal with than how to save mag, ammo or make a proper technique. Avoid such situations if only possibble.
Make tac reload behind cover and when have the time.
You simply need the weapon charged and full – just make it. Make tac reload pucker proof.
You may need the mags if they have any rounds left but trying to make the hand hold a couple of mags for this is rather not worth the trouble.
You can tac reload in the same way like when the weapon is empty. Because the time and place is your choise, it's also up to you to keep old mag or leave it. Enforcing special technique for this during training is a waste of time.

Tried to gather and work out your tips. I like the way of thinking of all of you. Interesting, how you sometimes need to hear from others what you know to realize the consequences. At least one of my problems is solved... :) Thanks!

[RandyDTC]

Grasp fresh mag from the carrier (support side at 9:00) - indexing your first finger along the front of the magazine. I also like to keep this hand indexed with the side of the body while moving towards the gun. It will help with magazine/gun alignment and prevent you from having to try to look at what you are doing.

Draw the magazine straight up and out of the carrier - rotate the wrist and move it towards the center of your body (and the gun).

When you get this hand to the gun, let the old magazine drop into your palm. Insert the new magazine and store the old one in a pocket or carrier.

Switching mags at the pistol keeps the pistol unloaded for the shortest amount of time. Additionally, by switching at the pistol, you do not remove the magazine from the pistol until you have a new one in your hand and ready to insert. This ensures you actually have a new magazine (haven't lost it from your carrier, etc, during the fight) to install BEFORE removing the one containing at least some ammo from your pistol.

You save some time (economy of motion) if you pull the partially depleted magazine from the gun the first time your support hand moves away, store it in a pocket, retrieve a magazine from the carrier, and insert into the gun. In other words, your support hand moves away from the gun, back the gun, and you are ready to shoot. The first method, your hand moves away from the gun, back, to the gun, away from the gun, and back the gun before you are ready to shoot.

With CAR, he (Paul) suggests you store the partially depleted magazine in the carrier instead of a pocket. I find it much quicker to get it into a pocket than a carrier, but if you need it again, it will be faster coming from the carrier.

Randy

[Dave James]

Althought we trained and I did enforce it when training ,,, I DON"T LIKE IT..

DUring a shooting at a mikey D's some one I know very well;) went thru all 4 mags on a 220,, he never had more than one mag in his hand at a time.. When it came time to reload or there was a lull the partial mag went into a pocket, a full one was grabbed and away he went. Only toward the end when back up finialy showed did he start reaching for the mags in the pocket ,,to have at least a few rounds to work with..


Its a neat skill, but I really believe when the ballon goes up and your fine motor skills disapear, its not needed

[slawkas]

Its a neat skill, but I really believe when the ballon goes up and your fine motor skills disapear, its not needed
I agree.

Smoothly made technique looks nice. You can feel familiar with your weapon and show it to others. This is also the drill possible to practice everywhere. You can be happy with your gun and your competence.

For those reasons I used to practice specific technique for tac reaload quite often. Justification was the same as written above - economy of motion and saving the time. But... Now, it seems to me rather to be a gadget than a seriuos tool.

[JMusic]

I never trained for this. A couple times that it could have been used I simpley shucked it on the ground and stuck a new one in. Moved on. My concentration was on the threat and getting a full compliment again. To be honest I can see the need as far as not loosing the mag. I did have trouble finding mine once.
Jim

[Guantes]

I never trained it but, tried it after reading about it. I can see the possible use in an extreme situation but, I don't like it. I'm too old and fumbly to be holding two or three things in one hand. I prefer just a quick "slam" reload from slide lock. I don't know if it has a name, I'm not very "tactical.:rolleyes: It takes less than 2 sec and you don't even have to work the slide.

If I can't get it done, not on the job, with almost a box of ammo, I shoulda been somewhere else or carry 30 rd mags for reload.

[RAM]

Acquire full mag from pouch, bring up under weapon, drop partial mag to palm and grab between middle and ring finger and withdraw, insert full mag and seat it, stow partial, usually in a pocket.

Obviously in a target rich situation you would not think about doing a tac reload, keep banging away til slide lock then emergency reload. Your tac reload would only be done when you think your world is relatively safe, then get the gun back up to capacity.

I would not want to remove partial mag stow it then go for the full replacement only to find that Murphy has stolen it or fired a round through it!

[4DrVette]

I think one important aspect of the reload is the comfort of knowing you're fully charged should your cover be compromised. Do you want to wonder if you have 3 or 10 rounds if the scrot comes around the corner blasting.
As far as technique, I like the way RoundEye described because that is how you hold your mag for all of your other loads, with the thumb and middle while indexing the mag well with the index finger.
As far as pocketing the mag then going to the pouch, who has that much time. You're left with one round for how many seconds, and if you have some S&W's, the round in the chamber is useless with the Mag Safety!!!
Does anyone have any ideas for reloading when one arm is disabled?

[Roundeyesamurai]

Does anyone have any ideas for reloading when one arm is disabled?

Yep:

1) Eject spent magazine (to ground);

2) Replace pistol in holster;

3) Use gun hand to insert new magazine;

4) Remove from holster, strike base of grip on knee or head or other hard surface to ensure the magazine in fully seated;

5) Release slide or cycle slide by hooking the rear sight onto top of trousers pocket.

Alternatively:

1) Eject magazine (to ground);

2) Place pistol against neck and hold with chin, or place pistol under arm (in the armpit) and hold in place with arm;

3) Insert new magazine;

4) Strike base of pistol against hard object (such as head) to fully seat the magazine;

5) Release slide or cycle slide by hooking the rear sight onto top of trousers pocket.

[Guantes]

Eject spent mag.
Place gun b/t feet, butt up.
Grab new mag, insert, seat with palm of hand.
Pick up gun, hit slide release.

[Brownie]

Does anyone have any ideas for reloading when one arm is disabled?

Which arm is disabled in the question?

Would it make a difference in the answers given?

Thanks

[Guantes]

Not with mine.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Not with my second one.

The first one, yeah, if it's a strong-side holster. Then again, one could substitute the opposite-side pants pocket instead of the holster and do just fine.

[RAM]

This is one area few practice, but should. Practice all of the techniques, Strong side, weak side, even malfunction clearing since some weapon systems seem more prone to malf if limp wristed or fired one handed.

Some other possibilities:

You might find out if you can draw your weapon after being shot in the strong arm, can you even reach it in it's holster with your support hand? I can reach mine around my back, others can only reach thiers around the front but then you are holding it upside down & have to turn it over.

An alternate place to hold the weapon for a reload might be to place it in the holster butt forward to insert the mag with the weak hand.

If you have rear sights that are snag free (tapered in front) hooking it on a pocket is not an option, an alternative might be to hook the slide at the ejection port or up by the muzzle on the sole of your boot/shoe or on another hard object like your holster (strong side) or a mag pouch (weak side).

Just a few thoughts. Want to have fun, try clearing a type 3 malf with just your support hand. Now that is as good a reason I can think of for a BUG!... Just make sure you can draw it one handed with either hand!

[Bugaboo]

All my thoughts are thoughts, no offence intended, please, I am open to arguments. I am not a preacher, I came here to learn.
I was tought to check my pistol or rifle everytime I stop shooting (like no more tergets to shoot). It is bringing the gun close to see the ejection port if the gun is in battery or it looks not right. If everything is OK, move further. It prevents you from going into unknown area with possible threats with gun out of operation. The same action follows when the gun stops shooting, you need to know why it stoped shooting (malf or empty). If it is a malf, you need to know which type to clear it. I am not familiar with the number-designations of the malfs, but some malfs can be made worse if you release mag and slam a new one in.
You could see the problem of tactical reload from the angle of decission making or train of thought.
We are all trying to pre-program actions to be triggered with basic perceptions.
So either a visual perception of magazine follower through the ejection port or feeling "I shot a lot" should both trigger the same ACTION, not another decission making process like "Do I emergency reload or tac-reload?" When you practice tac-reloading with holding the half-empty mag with whichever of your fingers and in the heat of the real-life you drop it, it could make you go "Oh S***, I screwed-up!" and I dont think we need that.
For sure the full mag should come to the weapon before you release the old one, CUT DOWN THE TIME WHEN GUN IS WITH ONE BULLET ONLY, play around later,the BG could appear around the corner anytime.
Does anyone have any ideas for reloading when one arm is disabled?
Another possibility:
Release magazine and go down to kneeling position and put the pistol's slide inside the bent knee, but up, at the same time. Muzzle pointing from left to right (right-handed shooter).
Reach for the replacement mag, insert and push home hard.
Take pistol and release slide.
BUT!!! It has one dangerous moment so be carefull during practice: when you put the new mag in and push it home, you easily could release the slide and either chamber the round (dont ask how I know) or, much worse, create a malfunction. SO, dont put it too deep into the knee pocket. Practice with dummies a lot, first.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Another possibility:
Release magazine and go down to kneeling position and put the pistol's slide inside the bent knee, but up, at the same time. Muzzle pointing from left to right (right-handed shooter).
Reach for the replacement mag, insert and push home hard.
Take pistol and release slide.
BUT!!! It has one dangerous moment so be carefull during practice: when you put the new mag in and push it home, you easily could release the slide and either chamber the round (dont ask how I know) or, much worse, create a malfunction. SO, dont put it too deep into the knee pocket. Practice with dummies a lot, first.

Yup, you're from the Israeli school of thought :D

The only difficulty I have with this, is that you're stuck in place while doing it. I'd much rather not stop and kneel in place to do the reload.

[Bugaboo]

Yup, you're from the Israeli school of thought :D

The only difficulty I have with this, is that you're stuck in place while doing it. I'd much rather not stop and kneel in place to do the reload.

Absolutelly agree, I just wanted to give the guy another option. But when you are in cover and dont need to move, it is ok method, not perfect. The moving around could get difficult if the injured arm is the strong one. Puting the gun in your pocket or in the waist band could make you loose the weapon and puting it into the holster with your weak hand is awkward.
When I had problem with my tendons in my left hand, I practiced this a lot and the slide-release thing happened to me, scarred the hell out of me, there were no people around, though, alone on the range.

[Roundeyesamurai]

All my thoughts are thoughts, no offence intended, please, I am open to arguments. I am not a preacher, I came here to learn.
I was tought to check my pistol or rifle everytime I stop shooting (like no more tergets to shoot). It is bringing the gun close to see the ejection port if the gun is in battery or it looks not right. If everything is OK, move further. It prevents you from going into unknown area with possible threats with gun out of operation. The same action follows when the gun stops shooting, you need to know why it stoped shooting (malf or empty). If it is a malf, you need to know which type to clear it. I am not familiar with the number-designations of the malfs, but some malfs can be made worse if you release mag and slam a new one in.
You could see the problem of tactical reload from the angle of decission making or train of thought.
We are all trying to pre-program actions to be triggered with basic perceptions.
So either a visual perception of magazine follower through the ejection port or feeling "I shot a lot" should both trigger the same ACTION, not another decission making process like "Do I emergency reload or tac-reload?" When you practice tac-reloading with holding the half-empty mag with whichever of your fingers and in the heat of the real-life you drop it, it could make you go "Oh S***, I screwed-up!" and I dont think we need that.
For sure the full mag should come to the weapon before you release the old one, CUT DOWN THE TIME WHEN GUN IS WITH ONE BULLET ONLY, play around later,the BG could appear around the corner anytime.

Frequently training malfunction drills and checking the weapon for function whenever there is a pause in the fighting are good ideas if your weapon has a history of being unreliable.

The malfunction issue becomes less important with a more-reliable weapon, to the point where malfunction drills can be trained only occasionally (if at all).

[Roundeyesamurai]

Absolutelly agree, I just wanted to give the guy another option. But when you are in cover and dont need to move, it is ok method, not perfect. The moving around could get difficult if the injured arm is the strong one. Puting the gun in your pocket or in the waist band could make you loose the weapon and puting it into the holster with your weak hand is awkward.
When I had problem with my tendons in my left hand, I practiced this a lot and the slide-release thing happened to me, scarred the hell out of me, there were no people around, though, alone on the range.

I played with one-hand reloading when I broke my wrist a few years ago (more for something to do while recuperating, than anything else). This is when I figured out that using the arm or chin as a second hand was a pretty neat idea.

[Bugaboo]

i will definitelly try the chin. Didnt you get burned with a hot pistol this way? Glock 19 is hardly a pistol with malf history, I get your point, but even my G19 had sevral malfs, it is just an idea.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Burned? Nah, not really. A little warm, maybe.

[Bugaboo]

Tried the chin reload last night dry. Works realy nice with both hands. I had no problem to push the mag home all the way and was still able to watch what is going on around me. Thank you for the technique.

[Roundeyesamurai]

No problem, man.

[5shot]

As far as I know, per the NYPD's SOP 9 study of 4000+ police combat cases, a tactical reload was never needed to end a CQB situation???

[Roundeyesamurai]

As far as I know, per the NYPD's SOP 9 study of 4000+ police combat cases, a tactical reload was never needed to end a CQB situation???

You're thinking of a reload when the gun runs empty. A tactical reload is reloading the (partially-loaded) weapon after doing some shooting, so that the weapon is returned to a state of being fully-loaded in case it is needed .

It's common for novice shooters such as yourself to confuse the two.

[Bugaboo]

It wasn't needed. But what if you will be the exception to the rule? Better be prepared, you don't know what will happen the next second and "you don't know" means you don't know. Besides skill helps to build selfconfidence. if you are serious about shoting you should acquire as much knowledge and skill as possible. It is not the gun in your hand that will solve the problem, it is you. Alone.
If I would agree with you then one question springs to mind: "Why bother and carry spare magazines at all?" One of the answers is damage to the magazine. A lot of the FOF and FOE malfs are caused by defective mag. I am a civie and CCW dude and I carry two spares and a flashlight everyday. What if I need it? What if I need the skill? Besides it is fun to practice the skills.

[sweatnbullets]

Take the used one out, but a fresh one in. Keep it simple, it is a reload when the action is over, or preceived over and you are behind cover.

No need to juggle, it is a simple thing.

[Low Drag]

Take the used one out, but a fresh one in. Keep it simple, it is a reload when the action is over, or preceived over and you are behind cover.

No need to juggle, it is a simple thing.

Yup, you've got to KISS the low drag approach.....:)

[5shot]

Per the SOP 9 info on the web: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1981.htm

"Rapid Reloading

The SOP 9 study reveals that the average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation is between two and three rounds, less than half the capacity of the service revolver. The two to three rounds per incident has remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also sub*stantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor In any of the cases examined. In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as neces*sary to continue the action. However, in 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons and other incidents where the action was pro*longed and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone.

It is evident in some cases that lack of firepower, not having a larger capacity weapon and/or ability to reload rapidly, may have changed the outcome. In no case was it the prime factor in bringing the contact to a successful conclusion

Despite the apparent low incidence of need, this training has not been discontinued. The manipulatory skill, over all familiarity with the revolver gained, and its value in some situations make it a useful part of training exercises. It is not emphasized to the degree it has been in the past at the expense of accurate delivery of the fired rounds. Every report indicates that it is accurate hits that count rather than the number."

[Roundeyesamurai]

Per the SOP 9 info on the web: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/SOP9/1981.htm

"Rapid Reloading

The SOP 9 study reveals that the average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation is between two and three rounds, less than half the capacity of the service revolver. The two to three rounds per incident has remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also sub*stantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor In any of the cases examined. In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as neces*sary to continue the action. However, in 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons and other incidents where the action was pro*longed and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone.

It is evident in some cases that lack of firepower, not having a larger capacity weapon and/or ability to reload rapidly, may have changed the outcome. In no case was it the prime factor in bringing the contact to a successful conclusion

Despite the apparent low incidence of need, this training has not been discontinued. The manipulatory skill, over all familiarity with the revolver gained, and its value in some situations make it a useful part of training exercises. It is not emphasized to the degree it has been in the past at the expense of accurate delivery of the fired rounds. Every report indicates that it is accurate hits that count rather than the number."

Unfortunately, this is a "how-to" thread, not a "why-to" thread.

Thanks for your contribution :rolleyes:.

EDIT TO ADD: As stated above, this is not "rapid reloading", this is reloading once the shooting is over, in order to return the weapon to readiness in case it is needed again.

[rwleonard]

[QUOTE=Roundeyesamurai]...if you're startled , your hand is very likely to splay open and you'll drop whatever you were holding. QUOTE]

Like my gun?;)

Rick

[Roundeyesamurai]

QUOTE=Roundeyesamurai]...if you're startled , your hand is very likely to splay open and you'll drop whatever you were holding. QUOTE]

Like my gun?;)

Rick

Here, is the quote in its entirety:

I'm not too enamored of holding anything between the index and middle fingers, for the simple fact that if you're startled (and ANYONE can be startled), your hand is very likely to splay open and you'll drop whatever you were holding.

Go startle a smoker while they're holding a cigarette like that, and see what happens.

[5shot]

Your welcome :)