Shotgun!

[Gunslinger808]

Dang guys, no one wants to talk about one of the most perfect weapons ever made?
You can hunt pretty much anything with it.
It's served in damn near every war.
Home defense at it's finest.
Reliability that other platforms wish they could match.
Virtually any configuration you could want.
Ease of operation.
Readily available ammunition (for all sorts of applications).
From birds to dirt bags, my personal favorite crowd pleaser.
But then, I am biased.

[Nscale]

The perfect weapon for home security
Mine is a remington 870 Wingmaster with a 20" barrel.
Nothing says "stop or I will shoot" like the sound of a pump shotgun. ;)

[Brownie]

Home defense with a shotty might be the 18 1/4" double barrel or the 9 shot Ithaca M+P for me.

I've not really used them much in the past but I'm pretty fond of that little double.

Keep a 55 rd bandolier set up with 000 buck as well as a 25 rds belt set up wth slugs around somewhere.

[Guantes]

I am also a fan of the shotgun for close range work. I keep a stripped down Mossy 500 with just a sling and a bead on an 18" bbl. I also keep a Rem 870 Express synth with a synth pistol grip stock, MMC ghost ring, side saddle and sling. I keep an ample supply of #4B, 00B and slugs with a 50 rd bandoleer.

[agalb]

Let's not get carried away with the pump racking sound BS. That is almost as silly as the BG giving up after looking at his own chest and seeing a laser dot.

[JMusic]

agalb,:) How about "nothing says stop or I'll shoot again" like the sound of a pump shotgun? Keep them loaded.
Jim

[Spooky8]

Hmm..I use the Remington 12 gauge, 11-87 shorty 14"bbl, and the Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies 870 pump with 6 round side saddle, 4 in the mag tube, 14"bbl..

I only feed them with, what I believe to be the best slugs in the world...........Brenneke Tactical and Original..The original have been around for about 90 years, of course with some minor mods through the years. The original slugs have been tested in 2 world wars, Korea, Vietnam, and in the street for police work...They work real good!! I love the gauge..very versatile weapon.

Regards,

Spooky8:D

[sweatnbullets]

You ever notice people really like the things that they are really good with?

I love my shotguns, :D it is where I really shine. It is the perfect weapon for my personality. It has been that way ever since I was a boy. Me and my buddies would go out rabbit hunting, they would all bring .22s. Not me, it was old reliable, my Mossberg 500. Man that thing was fast as greased lighting. No one wanted to hunt next to me, because if a rabbit broke....it was mine!;)

My hunting buddies use to call my mossy "the gates of hell" because when it was slamming, it was certain death.

Man, I miss that gun! Now all I have is a Mossberg 590A1 with ghost rings, bantaam stock, surefire forend, and wilderness tac sling....I guess it will do.;)

[Guantes]

Begging your pardon, that pump racking sound thing is not all bull****. There may be times that it has no effect but, I have experienced a few times where it had great effect. If shotguns have been used on a mob in the recent past seems to increase its effect.

[Gunslinger808]

Shotguns still play a large role in the LEO community.
Regardless of the recent trend towards more carbines and rifles, the shotgun is still holding it's own as a dependable and flexible weapon.
Here's a pic from our last qualification, two M-4s and two 14" bbl 870s.

[Dave James]

My all time favorite is the Winchester 97 riot, but for all around use the 37,870, 500 types are hard to beat.. I prefer short tubes 18" is fine with me, just a big ole bead, no rifle sights unless its set up for slugs..

And not to go off thread , but I have witness and seen where the racking of a slide and the DOT have stopped people from doing their deeds.

Shotgun was in a small riot sit's and the DOT was being used in a Prison yard dust up

[agalb]

agalb,:) How about "nothing says stop or I'll shoot again" like the sound of a pump shotgun? Keep them loaded.
Jim


:D

That's what I'm talking about!

[agalb]

Begging your pardon, that pump racking sound thing is not all bull****. There may be times that it has no effect but, I have experienced a few times where it had great effect. If shotguns have been used on a mob in the recent past seems to increase its effect.

What is that, a warning pump? What are you going to do if it doesn't work? Menacingly pump your shotgun again? Do that too many times and you will be out of ammo!

[Nscale]

Lets say the rack of the pump will be the last thing the BG hears :rolleyes:

[Roundeyesamurai]

What is that, a warning pump? What are you going to do if it doesn't work? Menacingly pump your shotgun again? Do that too many times and you will be out of ammo!

In sensible persons, the reciprocation of the shotgun slide is usually followed (if the threat doesn't abate) with the depression of the trigger.

BTW- Agalb: Gloves is definitely not someone whom you could insinuate to be impractical.

[Guantes]

agalb,
Actually working the slide accomplishes two objectives. 1) It loads a round in the chamber to prepare the weapon for firing. 2) It gives one last warning to cease and desist.

It is not a bluff but, will sometimes in and of itself make firing unnecessary.

[Nscale]

Actually working the slide accomplishes two objectives. 1) It loads a round in the chamber to prepare the weapon for firing. 2) It gives one last warning to cease and desist.


And if I may add Number 3. It gives the guy with the shotgun (me) a feeling of confidence. :)
I think that was number 10 on the list right? ;)

[Guantes]

It is a last chance for the potential shooter and shootee(s) to avoid a conclusion neither desires.

Re the confidence, that is true unless you hear/see the rounds drop to the floor as you work the slide. A story for another time.:)

[The Searcher]

Racking for effect is not all B.S. I've known several old timers who've told me that they used this to effect. One was a Miami cop who told me that he used it to persuade disturbed people to drop impact weapons. IRRC correctly he had a 3 or 4 to one ratio of the pump being enough. In the one case where it did not bring about "cease and desist" the gentleman was dissuaded by buckshot.

Granted, it will not work on everyone. The upside to racking is that you now have a loaded shotgun in your hands to deal with the situation.

Listen to Guantes. He is not a "theory only" type of guy. Dave James likewise.

I would love to have a fraction of their experience. I would not want to go through the process of gaining it. :eek:

[Guantes]

Thanks Searcher,
I have found that if you live long enough your bound to pick up a few things.

[agalb]

agalb,
Actually working the slide accomplishes two objectives. 1) It loads a round in the chamber to prepare the weapon for firing. 2) It gives one last warning to cease and desist.

It is not a bluff but, will sometimes in and of itself make firing unnecessary.

Are you telling me you would face a potential threat while holding a weapon with an empty chamber? Assuming a weapon is stored with an empty chamber (that is a different discussion), should it not be readied immediately upon removal from the holster/rack/closet/etc?

[Guantes]

I agree about not facing a potential threat with an empty chamber. As you mention if the boomer is carried (in a b/w with an empty chamber), sometimes it is grabbed as it might be used, but is not initially racked. It depends on the particular situation.

[Roundeyesamurai]

Agalb:

Gloves is talking about a weapon which is stored in a patrol vehicle, chamber empty, being removed and immediately put to use. Not "waltzing up to" a threat with an empty chamber, as it were.

Incidentally:

It's more than a little hypocritical for you to make a criticism about having an empty chamber:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?p=370#post370

G19 with 14 rds in 15 rd magazine, chamber empty, mexican carry (no holster). No spare mag.

[agalb]

Agalb:

Gloves is talking about a weapon which is stored in a patrol vehicle, chamber empty, being removed and immediately put to use. Not "waltzing up to" a threat with an empty chamber, as it were.

Incidentally:

It's more than a little hypocritical for you to make a criticism about having an empty chamber:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?p=370#post370

You, sir, need to re-read my post. I made no criticism at all about storing a firearm with an empty chamber. Please pay attention before name calling.

My issue is with relying on the "pump sound" as an effective deterrent. I am OK with it working sometimes, as an unexpected benefit, and I think that those who have commented so far would agree that it is only that; an unexpected benefit.

[Roundeyesamurai]

You, sir, need to re-read my post. I made no criticism at all about storing a firearm with an empty chamber. Please pay attention before name calling.

I'm not getting snippy with you, Agalb, so don't get snippy with me.

My issue is with relying on the "pump sound" as an effective deterrent. I am OK with it working sometimes, as an unexpected benefit, and I think that those who have commented so far would agree that it is only that; an unexpected benefit.

I'm glad you've finally realized what was being discussed- an incidental benefit, not a deterrent being relied upon.

[Nscale]

Dang guys, no one wants to talk about one of the most perfect weapons ever made?


Gunslinger,
It looks like a few folks are very passionate about thier shotguns. :D

[agalb]

I'm not getting snippy with you, Agalb, so don't get snippy with me.

I'm glad you've finally realized what was being discussed- an incidental benefit, not a deterrent being relied upon.

I think that hasty, unfounded name calling is VERY "snippy".

And, by the way, I didn't "realize" what was being discussed- I spelled it out. Nice of you to quote me.

[Roundeyesamurai]

I think that hasty, unfounded name calling is VERY "snippy".

I didn't "call you a name".

This isn't Gl0ck T@lk, where one can throw in such comments to distract readers away from the fact that one was incorrect.

Let's put this to rest now, and continue with the discussion.

[agalb]

I didn't "call you a name".

This isn't Gl0ck T@lk, where one can throw in such comments to distract readers away from the fact that one was incorrect.

Let's put this to rest now, and continue with the discussion.

You have got to be kidding me.

First you call me hypocritical, after not paying attention to my post. That is most certainly name calling. When I called you on it, you got defensive and dismissive.

You say that I am incorrect, after quoting one of my previous posts?

Make up your mind!

[Roundeyesamurai]

Moving on :rolleyes:

[Guantes]

RES,agalb,

I feel that perhaps my lack of clarity precipitated this tift, in which case I apologize to both of you with the hope that, that will be sufficient to end this.

[Roundeyesamurai]

It's not your doing, Gloves.

PM inbound.

[agalb]

RES,agalb,

I feel that perhaps my lack of clarity precipitated this tift, in which case I apologize to both of you with the hope that, that will be sufficient to end this.


Not you at all, we're just grouchy.

I'm done and moving on as well.

[sweatnbullets]

Thanks guys!;)

[kilogulf59]

"To rack or not to rack...that is the question...."

In my opinion and not wanting to insult anyone, etc., insert favorite disclaimer here _____________, blah, blah, blah.

Correct storage procedure for a "defensive" pump shotgun is loaded magazine, empty chamber, and the striker at rest (aka pulling the trigger on an empty chamber). This so the weapon is ready to operate without the necessity of manipulating the slide release.

Most shotguns have a marginal safety at best therefore, if one is about to face a known threat, load the chamber immediately. If one is facing a possible threat it's then up to you. Personally, I'd load up ASAP. The "person" you may be facing might not be inclined to run, they may hear the rack and immediately attack.

Contrary to popular belief, the SG in not the ideal (indoors) home defense weapon. It's probably the ideal fight stopper but it has a few shortcomings as a "house gun". Mainly, it's size and that fact that it IS a two-handed weapon.

FYI...mine is a plain-Jane Mossberg 500, 18.5" bbl. and "00" buckshot.

[Nscale]

Makes sense KG,
I keep my shotgun proped by the bedstand without a shell in the chamber. If I have to pick it up I would then chamber a round with the pump. And that would be heard all over my house. Hopefully the BG would make a hasty retreat before I come out of the bedroom.

I do have a secret weapon, that I think everyone should consider, and that is dogs. Instead of getting one "real" dog, we ended up with 4 pomoranians. Dont ask how that happened. :( The only thing little dogs are good for is yapping. (Poms think they are dobermans - Samll dog complex.):D And I have a pack of em.

This gives me some assurance the BG can not make it into the bedroom and shoot me with my own gun. :)


BTW - A man has to be pretty secure in his masculinity to attend a Motorcycle rally with a pomoranian in tow. You can forget playing the badass leather clad Harley dude.

[Guantes]

Our shotguns were carried in patrol vehicles with a full magazine, empty chamber, hammer cocked and the safety on. The logic was that it would make it difficult for anyone unauthorized to operate the weapon, while still requiring only two steps to bring the weapon into action. While this logic might not be necessary at home it might also be advantageous should children discover the weapon.

[kilogulf59]

Hey Nscale & Guantes....I see we're having our 3-some again...LOL

I wouldn't place too much confidence in "the sound" if I were you. Sound, like flashlights and tracers, works both ways.

Don't laugh at your "attack dogs" either...they make noise and they'll probably make it when it counts...when the midnight callers are OUTSIDE your home.

Anyone who continues to illegally enter into you home whilst dogs are a barkin' ain't gonna be intimidated by much.

LOL....on the motorcycle rally. BTW, most of those "bad asses" are accountants who bought their lifestyle. I'm still laughing though, I got a visual. I knew a guy who had three Yorkies.....

All kidding aside, I'm a huge fan of ANY dog as a first line of warning. I have a 95# Malamute and a 65# curbstone setter. They're pussycats but they bark! Besides, anyone doing a recon and sees them doesn't know they're weenies. That darn Malamute looks like a wolf and the mixed breed has facial features like a Shepherd and the body of a Boxer.

Guantes, excellent points. Again and "in my opinion" as long as you always do it the same way it shouldn't be a problem. It adds another step, albeit an extremely minor one, but you know its there and trained that way.

[Guantes]

KG,
I agree re not relying on the racking noise and have experienced both positive and negative results. In my personal experience it seems to work better on groups than individuals. I have had it defuse good size problems (groups). I have also had it have no effect. For instance a burglar whose car I was approaching from the side. He tried to turn/drive into me. His maneuver was ineffective and I didn't really feel justified in capping him, so a butt stroke to the jaw sloved the problem. It is, as I mentioned, just a bonus when it happens.

Agree also, that one should use an sop for weapon deployment.

[Gunslinger808]

We keep ours in our vehicles in a condition called "Hot Standby".
Basically it's all rounds loaded in the mag, nothing in the chamber, safety off.
Once you exit the vehicle just rack and roll.
Our other option for an already deployed shotgun is called "Hot Chamber", that's one in the pipe with the safety on, you can either top off the mag, or leave it one round light in case you might need to change the load.
If you need to change from buck to slug (or whatever) you just tac load one into the mag and cycle the action once.

[Matthew Temkin]

When I lived in the east Village in 1976 it was not a very safe place and I kept a chamber empty Mossberg 500 handy.
One evening i heard someone trying to jimmy the door and i told him--without opening the door--to go away.
The idiot kept trying to force the door open and I chambered a round so as to be ready to fire if the moron broke in.
The only sound that I heard after racking the action was a "DAMN!!!" followed by the sound of running feet.
However..had the gun been fully chambered I would not have sacraficed a round to make the sound.
But it can be a nice bonus.
There was a time when I owned shotguns mainly for hunting, hence the Mossberg 500, Winchester 1200 in 20 guage and a Remington 1100 Special Field in 20 guage.
Lately I have been on a tactical kick, and have added a Nova pump, Franchi 612 HD and a 870 Marine model with an extended tube.
All are great and even those with just a front bead are deadly accurate with standard Winchester foster slugs.
The ghost ring sights on the Nova are fantastic and turns it into a pump action rifle.

[kilogulf59]

What I'm about to write here isn't meant to **** off anyone and I really do mean that.

I'm speaking to our forum members collectively and it's something I feel very strongly about so here goes.

As I generally say, I look at things a bit different from most folks. When I look at "gun forums" I do so from the perspective of a "newbie" who's come here for some information.

OK, I'm not saying that on a few occasions that "THE sound" (looks off into the heavens mystically and heres "Desperado" playing softly in the background) didn't have it's claimed effect. I just feel it's being expounded so much as to become a virtual "tactic", an SOP if you will.

This, to me, is akin to the tapes of vicious dog sounds that were marketed for awhile...please.

Also, the buzz term thing. A rose is a rose is a rose. Every guru and would-be urban commando school instructor has got to label "things" using his own verbiage. "Tactical Wording"? "New York Titles"? "FBI Nomenclature"?

At "other" forums, I seen people lambasted for saying clip instead of magazine. The same people doing the lambasting can be found in other threads carrying on about "tactical" this or "Israeli" that etc.

I think you all know to what I'm referring. I'd hope this forum would rise above this, be the example to all others if you will.

Hey, I slip too, and catch myself delving into the Hollywood/marketing end of the spectrum at times. I grew up with the TV westerns, Dirty Harry movies, and the firearm magazines.

I also should've made this a separate posting but with all the coffee ......

Well, that's my $.02...I'm going out for a smoke.

[Dave James]

"KIL" so as far as your concerned its just all make believe?

[Guantes]

KG,
I don't believe anyone here suggested "The Sound" as a tactic in and of itself. It is merely a by-product of an action (racking the slide), which sometimes has bonus effects. I believe there is more than one thing at work with, the sound. Generally speaking, most bg's don't want to get killed or shot, regardless of what anyone says. There are exceptions of course but, my experience and that of other experienced people I know indicates that they are just that exceptions, not the rule. If this were not true, there would not be the number of incidents reported by the NRA in which the mere display of a gun (usually a handgun) dissuaded further criminal or aggressive action by bg's.

"The Noise", represents a particular threat level, from/or to use, the shotgun. If the shotgun is in a rack but known about, its threat level may be known, but is low. When the weapon is removed from the rack the threat level is raised. It is raised again when the slide is worked. It is not the noise that causes the fear or respect, but the level of threat that the noise represents. It is the last step of several, with the exception of a verbal warning, prior to firing the weapon.

It is the tail rattle of the shotgun, prior to striking and it frequently has the same effect as the tail rattle.

Should racking be used unless one is prepared to follow through with firing, my opinion is NO.
Should one be aware of the possible reaction (cessation of aggressive or criminal behavior) racking may have, my opinion is YES.

The buzz word thing is a whole subject in itself. Buzz words are often created by people within a group to have a specific word to identify an action or thing, without further explaination. Sometimes, it is meant to exclude others from knowing the subject being discuss, other times it is merely conevnience. To chastize someone for using th wrong term or buzz word is merely one person's attempt to show their superiority, probably brought out by feelings of inferiority. I see no real harm in the use of buzz words, as long as one realizes that someone else may not know or choose to use them.

Personally, terms or buzz words are of little significance to me one way or the other. Whether it is called, Tactical, Isreali of Garden variety shooting, means little to me compared to the effectiveness of the technique.

Back to my Cherry Coke, I don't drink coffee....

[trigger]

Home defense with a shotty might be the 18 1/4" double barrel or the 9 shot Ithaca M+P for me.

I've not really used them much in the past but I'm pretty fond of that little double.

Keep a 55 rd bandolier set up with 000 buck as well as a 25 rds belt set up wth slugs around somewhere.

I would prefer a street sweper with a 13" barrel.:D

[LongRider]

KG,
I don't believe anyone here suggested "The Sound" as a tactic in and of itself. It is merely a by-product of an action (racking the slide), which sometimes has bonus effects.
I think some folks are not going to get it as you have said some variant of this in each of your posts. I do have a question what about the one time you need for the BG not to hear. Say their intent is not robbery but rather they are armed looking to do you harm? You than of course do not want them to know where you are and need to give them a surprise shot.

Back to my Cherry Coke, I don't drink coffee....
Has more caffeine than coffee