Techniques and training for walking stick? [Archive]

Joe Weinstein

05-03-2007, 04:21 PM

Hi all. I have been researching books or DVDs to find
a practical basis of practice to develop self defense
with a typical generic walking stick (wood, with one looped
hook end). I have not found any that I feel are very
trustworthy yet, because of my prejudice that a big
portion of the training would have to do with weapon
retention, because any assailant will surely see that you
have a cane and would likely try to grab it as soon as
it was wielded in any way if not before. None of the
books or DVDs I have seen went into this at all.
I would imagine that the 80/20 rule would apply, in
that 80% of the benefit of cane defense would involve
20% of the possible techniques, which I'm guessing
would mostly be one-handed and two-handed strikes
and jabs. I wouldn't be initially interested in fancier
techniques except as they were part of the basic
retention repertoire once the perp grabbed me or the
cane.

A cane can be taken anywhere, and I have had surgery
a few years ago on one knee (ACL, partial minisectomy)
and it can be stiff and ache sometimes in some neighborhoods...
thanks

Brownie

05-03-2007, 04:49 PM

Welcome to the Threat Focused forum Joe.

I'm on the road for a training class in Pa, but when I get home middle of next week, I'll throw up some links to very informative stick and cane information.

JMusic

05-03-2007, 05:14 PM

Welcome MR.Weinstein Check out CaneMasters.com. They make canes that Brownie and I both carry, even on planes. They have a full course deal with purchase of a cane. Check out the Black Belt cane. Its a sweetheart.:D Joe you have to be offensive. Even if initially defensive you would deflect the attack and immediatly go offensive. The subject should not be standing when you are finished and it should not take many blows.

Jim

Joe Weinstein

05-04-2007, 10:16 PM

Thank you Jim and Brownie! I do have a Cane Masters basic cane,
and it's very sturdy piece. I shortened it by 2" to the proper length
for actual cane support, and fortunately was able to find the rubber
tip within fifteen feet of my punching bag, so I glued it on.
I will be working on my base, my swings and jabs. I do have two of
their DVDs, the basic foundation and the street techniques. I have
also watched 'cane for self-defense' by gordon ostler, and the book
'The cane as a weapon' by A.C. Cunningham.
It's clear that this cane can be a serious stopper. What I'm still
looking for is any thought given to techniques for retaining or re-
controlling the cane if the cane has been grabbed or trapped by
the opponent.
I am beginning to think of my own basics. In considering the
ability to quickly apply repeat strikes, and also to be able to
retain the cane, I imagine that the best serious starting stance
for open confrontation is a two-handed grip like a Japanese sword,
near the hook end, with the hook going under. The no-hook end is
plenty heavy enough and gives the least chance for the opponent
to grab, and if they do, having the hook end permits more pulling
power to retain (if/when pulling is the right thing). I can imagine
closing techniques too, because as long as the opponent is occupied
holding their end of the cane they are open for hand strikes, kicks,
and other fancier ideas to twist the cane out of their grasp or into
a lock or fall.

JMusic

05-05-2007, 07:21 AM

Joe I suppose you are looking for ways other than shooting them off the end of it.:D The cane I have is meant to fight two handed with. Knee's, kicks, but more importantly using the cane properly is the way to make some one let go. Normally when someone grabs your stick you can twist them off it. If they don't let go they will end up in a pinning or choking position. Brownie has had more one handed stick fighting and may have some counter moves. Other than knocking a gun or knife out of someones hand I would use my cane with two hands, hook facing out.

Jim

Joe Weinstein

05-05-2007, 09:11 AM

I do practice striking with the hooked end too. It's the heavier end,
and would be the most damaging. Does the black belt DVD demonstrate
the twisting-to-pin/choke techniques?
I can also imagine the use for pugil-stick-like close-in blows, holding
the stick near each end. This might be as follow-ups to wresting the
stick away from a grabber, or in confined, crowded situations. I'll try
this on the bag and see how it feels.

JMusic

05-05-2007, 02:31 PM

A look see at one of mans truely great creations.:) Does your cane look like this one. Note the point on the birds head and the triangular section on the shaft.

Jim

RAM

05-06-2007, 12:34 PM

Jim,

Is that the Black Belt Model? What wood is it?

Darn you guys! Now you have me wanting to buy a stick and videos! :D

JMusic

05-06-2007, 04:15 PM

Ram, its the Black Belt model 36" long. Its made out of Hickory heart. Its as good of weapon as I have carried. You could almost gut and fillet something with this.:)

Jim

Brownie

05-06-2007, 06:38 PM

You could almost gut and fillet something with this.

Ram,

Jim's right, it will dig a kidney out of someones back in a heartbeat :eek: [ you just have to be willing to give it a good pull once it's hooked into the body ]:D

RAM

05-06-2007, 07:01 PM

A look see at one of mans truly great creations.:)
Jim

So Jim, How do you really feel about it? :D

It is a beauty!

The Cane Masters west office is in Reno a short drive over the hill from me, I think I will give a call and see if they are open on Saturdays, if they are, I'm going to have a look see.

I am thinking about the Custom Street in hickory heart, it's a bit more sedate than the Black belt.

Brownie

05-06-2007, 07:19 PM

Ram,

Take a look at the instructors cane in Hickory Heart as well. Thats the one I bought along with a training cane in Walnut. The Walnut trainer is half the weight of the hickory heart in the same length.

The cutouts along the shaft are called "sharks teeth"

RAM

05-06-2007, 07:43 PM

Will do B.

I really like the concept of being able to bring a "tool" with you any where you go, including commercial airliners. My favorite tool they tend to frown on, unless it's in the checked bags!

Something else to train with!:)

Joe Weinstein

05-06-2007, 08:49 PM

Yep! I went the more stealth mode. In fact I may get
another basic cane without the laser etching, in case
some lawyer looked up cane masters and built a killer
story... A plain one is hugely stout, and yet generic
enough to look like you bought it at a Longs Drug store.
It doesn't have as sharp a hook, that's for sure.
One cane I bought sight-unseen but wouldn't recommend
is the 'cold steel' plastic cane. It's black, with easy-to-grasp
undulations all along the shaft, which gets thicker until the
head, which is a large ball, not a hook. This ball is solid,
and about the size of an apple. This might be a good mace-like
long-handled club, but as a walking stick, it's just too much.
You'd have to dress like a World Wrestling Federation pimp to
match it, and then it's not even cool ebony or anything, it's
plastic... I'll see if I can post a picture of it.
Joe

Joe Weinstein

05-06-2007, 09:39 PM

the cold steel cane...

cockedlocked01

05-07-2007, 10:31 AM

You know, I bought one of those African walking sticks a couple months ago. I took it on a trip recently & even got compliments on it. A lady asked me where I got it, because she'd like to get one for her father.

I like the canemasters canes, but being in LE, I notice it too easily. I can only imagine it will be a matter of time, before they start having restrictions on certain "types" of canes (Such as serrations & pointy ends, etc).

JMusic

05-07-2007, 10:38 AM

I turn the cane inward when around LE. I also limp alot.:p I will have to say I was surprised at the total disregard of the canes design. As others have mentioned I doubt I would miss the porpose of a cane designed like mine is. Not one word was mentioned.

Jim

RAM

05-07-2007, 01:12 PM

I can only imagine it will be a matter of time, before they start having restrictions on certain "types" of canes (Such as serrations & pointy ends, etc).

Count on it right after the next mass beatings at a public school! :mad:

Ban those assault canes! They serve only one purpose, the mass beatings of human life! Ban them now before the blood fills the streets!

Of course there will have to be a legal description of what an assault cane looks like...

Mini canes of 24 inches or shorter are too short to use as a walking aid therefore must be more dangerous and banned.

Any cane with two or more features listed below is an assault cane.

Grips carved on the shaft.
More than ten shark teeth.
Sharp or otherwise pointed horn.
Crook that is closed more than 180 degrees.
Serpent or birds head.
Eyes or other evil animal features.

All assault canes currently owned as of passage of this bill must be registered and kept in a locked container at all times.

Transportation: Assault canes may only be transported between places that they may legally be stored or used and must be kept out of the reach of vehicle occupants, such as in the locked trunk or kept in a securely locked container...

Oh boy, do I have too much time on my hands! :D

Come to think of it an occasional caning would probably be a good thing in the school system! :D

Dave James

05-07-2007, 02:44 PM

Another good place to shop for usable canes is one's own Farmer supply store, most are staff's or slightly longer than norm but are used for herding.

If I could use it and had the money to spend I would buy a BURGER, and never look back

Brownie

05-07-2007, 03:10 PM

DJ

Link/contact info to these Burgers?

JMusic

05-07-2007, 03:10 PM

Having traveled through airports with my cane I can give you the current perspective on a person carrying a cane. It shocked me and I had not thought about this prior to experiencing it. I was treated as a handicapped person. Mind you I took no advantages of this but I was even offered a cart at one airport. I was stranded at a stop over for the night and had been rerouted for the next day. I would have to arrive at 6am (its midnight now) travel to Dallas, Nashville and finally my home destination. I was waiting in line to hear this news and get my boarding pass when a lady picked me out of the middle of the line and took me to her terminal. Told me of the travel route which I was not too happy about. She said give me a moment and I'll be back. Five minutes later she walks up to me and says"Ignore anything I say for the next few minutes" I smile and say surething and she calls a friend and says she has a special person who needs a favor. The word was not special but it was simular. A few minutes later she has me on the first flight out to my home port. To beat that I waited in line for an hour to get a bus. Getting close to the front I was beat out by some others one particular a$$ hole. The driver seeing me back in the line leaning on the cane immediatley jerked a$$ hole out and had me move into his seat.:D Thats the mind set right now with people using canes.:)

Jim

RAM

05-07-2007, 05:04 PM

Link to Burger sword kane:

http://www.swordcane.com/

Good luck getting it through the metal detectors. :eek:

Carrying in public in the Peoples republik of Kalifornia would be a felony. (concealed fixed blade) Now if it were a folder two feet long, folded, it's legal concealed down your pant leg!

I'd rather get caught with a concealed firearm... it's only a misdemeanor! Go figure! :confused:

RAM

05-07-2007, 05:14 PM

Jim,

The astute bus driver saw the black belt cane, acted to difuse a possible situation by removing the HOLE before you could gut him thereby saving his life and blood staines in the bus!:D

That's it I'm getting one!

The Cane Masters store emailed me this morning... they do have a showroom in Reno, so I'm going to gat some hands on before I make up my mind on which cane to buy. Videos too.

Jim,

Did you get any of thier videos, or is your training through a local dojo?

Brownie

05-07-2007, 05:18 PM

Ram,

Thanks for the heads up on the Burger canes, I'll not be getting one of those for sure;)

I got the hands on training from Master Shuey himself. Didn't think it was worth it myself, but I did get a discount on the canes:D

JMusic

05-07-2007, 06:27 PM

Ram, my brother and I ran a dojo on TKO. We didn't have much stick training through our school. One man in town (the old timer) was the one to see about that and I was fortunate to learn some techniques. Mostly two handed and his training on the PR 24 was outstanding. Most don't like the tonfa but believe me this man knew how to use it. I use the cane simular to the tonfa and the two handed stick.

Jim

Joe Weinstein

05-07-2007, 10:09 PM

Does anyone here with cane training think that an extended
one-handed stab, like an epee thrust, is a powerful enough
blow to the body or likely to hit a head target? I can see a
well-trained fencer practicing and encorporating this, but
does anyone see it in their top-ten techniques to burn into
motor memory?

DocH

05-08-2007, 05:47 AM

Joe,I fixed myself up a homemade rig a few years ago similar to the Cold Steel. I used a cut down Q-stick with big 8 ball secured at the top with JB weld.I was just messing around,but it turned out pretty good.A noggin thumper for sure.:D It's the poor mans solution.

Brownie

05-08-2007, 03:35 PM

Does anyone here with cane training think that an extended
one-handed stab, like an epee thrust, is a powerful enough
blow to the body or likely to hit a head target?

Joe;

As Jim mentioned, I would not use the cane in that manner myself. I use the cane two handed 90% of the time.

Here's a few links to some cane/walking stick knowledge as promised now that I'm home from the training event I put on in Easton, Pa. Some links are of fencing from old world french and spanish lineage that can be translated to the walking sitck or cane at times. Interesting "moves".

http://www.delongis.com/PalpableHit/

http://www.martinez-destreza.com/articles/carranza.htm

http://ejmas.com/pt/ptart_truscott_1102.html

http://www.lulu.com/content/547629

I may find more here at a later date. Take a close look at the sword links, and the footwork particularly as well as the strikes and parry's.

RAM

05-10-2007, 12:09 AM

Cane masters is not open weekends, so today being my birthday I took the day off, jumped on the bike and went to Reno. Success! They had a Hickory with heart wood Custom Street cane that was almost what I wanted. It had eyes in the bird’s head that I didn't really want, but they make the birds head look more like an artsy feature carved into the cane rather than a nasty implement to impale an attacker on.

Jim, now that I have one in hand I think you can safely remove the word "almost" from your post! :eek: This is a nasty, I mean really cute little bird. The point on mine is so sharp it almost draws blood just under the weight of the cane! Slight exaggeration... very slight!

Awesome quality products! If I can figure out to post pics I will.

Now I need to start learning the basics!

You could almost gut and fillet something with this.:)

Jim

Beagles747

05-12-2007, 03:04 PM

Ram, its the Black Belt model 36" long. Its made out of Hickory heart. Its as good of weapon as I have carried. You could almost gut and fillet something with this.:)

Jim

Damn I love this stuff! Ok now I want to learn the cane stuff! Wink wink ;)
Attn: Brownie ;)

Jim, Nice Vette! And is that a basset Hound? :D

-John

Brownie

05-13-2007, 02:04 PM

John,

When I get back from Knoxville, Tenn. and then Santa Fe, NM we'll drag out the canes and get to it in the backyard.;)

It'll give me a chance to work with them again as well.

JMusic

05-22-2007, 07:46 AM

John, good eye. Yep he's my third there addicting and good for nothing.:p Here's a better pic of Buddy Ray Music.:p

Jim

gizzmo

05-31-2007, 05:02 PM

http://www.the-exiles.org/manual/lang/lang.htm
this is a knob stick site vs a crook end cane but still a lot of good information

kyle bce

06-05-2007, 07:07 PM

I've been thinking about canes for some time. I've traveled to Chicago, Connecticut, and Europe- all unfriendly to my carry permit. So I've looked at the canes mentioned in this post on cane masters site.

Is the popular consensus the "blackbelt" line? I'd like to get 1 cane to hold onto and use.

JMusic

06-06-2007, 11:59 AM

The Black Belt is my choice of cane but it may be scrutenized at certain airports. I usualy try to keep mine close to my body to hide some of the sharper edges when walking through airports. There are others that look less leathal from Cane Masters but that is a personal choice. The black Belt fit my fighting style with a stick thus I take the chance of being singled out at security.

Jim

Brownie

06-06-2007, 12:09 PM

Jim's cane is definately nastier looking than my instructors cane. It has more sharks teeth, and a sharper birds beak on the crook to boot.

Mine has made quite a few flights over the years, Jims made it out here and back domestically, but going overseas might cause issues with them elsewhere.

Hiding it near your leg is probably a good thing to avoid any attention, the problem there is they take it from you and run it through the scanner. In Phoenix one of the TSA agents really gave it a hard look when he took it from me to scan it and made some snide comment about the sharks teeth [ to the effect of "what are those, notches of the people you've killed?" ]

I just replied "I'm a little old man", and didn't feel it was in my best interest to continue that conversation right then and there based on my surroundings at the time.

I like Jims better than mine, though he wouldn't make the trade:( :D

gizzmo

06-06-2007, 07:36 PM

For a non-martial looking cane with wide crook :D ...check out the selection at your local farm and ranch supply / feed store. :confused: The cane will probably need finishing work to make it presentable (they are animal sorting sticks and the finish is not always the best). They just don't have the wicked evil look of some of the martial-arts canes.

RRL762

06-24-2007, 02:03 PM

My only issue with a cane/club is the amount of force it can take to bring some people down. There are numerous videos out there of people taking horrific beatings with sticks and then continuing to fight and grapple over the stick.

The Dog brothers have full contact matches with virtually no padding and these guys keep going. In one instance a guy splits he skull open and stands there smiling as the blood squirts out his head. Crazy but you have a lot of guys with that mentality out there.

In my opinion if you are going to use a stick make sure you work twice as much on retention and grappling with it.

Brownie

06-24-2007, 05:43 PM

I've trained police and regular citizens in stick for something like 16 years since learning them since 81, both double and single stick.

When training the PD personnel in single stick techniques, the key ingredient has always been using two hands on the stick which then allows the retention of same while still being capable of major strikes with both ends as well as the center of the stick used to "push" on body parts as necessary.

Almost impossible to take the stick away from one who knows how to use it with two hands on it and make strikes. These do require the defender with the stick to be somewhat closer than most like to be when using it [ while still capable of hard strikes like swinging one would deliver ], but I've always felt that retention was more important, hence the two hands on the one stick.

Once you know the striking patterns, two handed one stick fighting/defending is very easy. Yes, the body can take a lot of punishment, but one needs to remember that where the police can target and where I'd target the strikes would be different. One entity having to be "PC" and follow the guidelines of their respective states training agenda, the other an all out attempt to put someone on their butt and likely in the hospital.

The dog brothers are not your average street thug/banger. They have developed the ability to ignore the pain and injuries and train accordingly. I know of NO street bangers/criminals who train to take hits from the sticks regularly like those "brothers" and their followers in that arena.

JMusic

06-25-2007, 09:26 PM

A couple points I'd like to make. First I don't know who the dog brothers are nor do I need to. Many sports today can take it to the extreme. Proper use of the sticks do not involve beating someone on the head. I've seen people take horrific blows to the head and keep going, I've seen people take blows that literally knocked them end over end across the road and they still lived. Striking someone to the head is not a good technique. I will qualify that somewhat with saying there are strikes to points or area's to the head that will work but wild ass swings to the head is not a technique.

A cane style stick is not to be used as a blunt weapon. Strikes need to be focused to specific area's. Pulls, slashes, jabs, strikes to the legs, neck, collar bone, etc is how you use a cane or stick. What we saw with Rodney King was not a good technique no matter what expert testified to the contrary. I've seldom had to hit someone twice to incapacitate the subject. Using a cane, flashlight, pool stick is part of a weapons system. When it all flows together as one is when it is devastating no matter what the pain tollerance.

Jim

Brownie

06-25-2007, 09:49 PM

Jim,

With sticks, I like to target the hands/wrists/forearms if given the chance as they are usually holding something that is distasteful and potentially dangerous to myself as well as some of the closest targets when they "reach out":D

With the cane, I'd be inclined to use the targeting areas as you suggest which are the "Pulls" [ on the back of the shoulder blades, etc ], slashes [ with the sharks teeth cutting to the bony areas of the offensive body parts ], jabs [ to the throat/thorasic/solar plexes, etc ], strikes to the legs, neck, collar bone [ with the end of the cane ].

Again, I'll use the cane two handed like the sticks for control. Whats nice about the cane is the ability to use the crook of the cane [ and it's birds beak ] to pull and penetrate into kidneys, shoulder blades, thighs, etc. ]. Two ends with different abilities to create a lot of damage and control the subject if you know how to use one with a modicum of simple techniques.

The simpler the techniques are kept, the better to my thinking. If anyone knows how to "play that tune" it's our very own Mr. Music:eek: ;)

Blade_Zero

08-23-2007, 05:45 PM

I've just skimmed through this thread, so forgive any oversights but the first post related to training material. Cold Steel have a training video, I've only viewed the trailer but it looks reasonably grounded. I'm sure there is some fancy non-practical stuff in there too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2XL_iQgJnc

woodsman1st

12-21-2008, 06:24 PM

August 23, 2007 was when this last had a post.

I just found it; Thank You for not deleting this.

I can't stand the drug store canes; and most walking sticks for sale are either a piece of dung covered with shelac; or extravagantly hand carved works of art.

So I have been making my own now for about ten years; many different kinds of wood; I put a beautiful hand rubbed London Oil Finish on them, and one pound of lead, or so, poured in the upper end. The one, (out of 5 that I keep) that gets the most use, also has several pieces of agate deeply inlaid into the top (to cause lots of bleeding); as well as 1 1/4 pound of lead poured into the top. I have had to stop two nasty and large dogs while on my morning walks; the white oak didn't break; and the dogs were sleeping peacefully when I left. I didn't try to kill them; so they lived; but never chased me again.

My son-in-law has several Ironwood trees on his land. While I am down there for Christmas I am going to get as many branches as I can for some real head thumping walking sticks; my understanding is that I won't have to add any lead to these; and that the wood is extremely hard and difficult to sand, carve or inlay; anyone familiar with Ironwood?

I have not been trained in their use for self defense. When I get back from visiting my children over Christmas, I will go over this topic again, and take much more time learning all the knowledge that is here. Does anyone know of a really good video that could help me learn how to use it effectively? And Brownie I agree with you on retention; so hopefully the video will spend some time on this.

I have never been questioned about my walking sticks when I fly anywhere; even though the ends are filled with lead. Just in case though, I carry a prescription from my Doctor stating that I am disabled and have to use a walking stick. If questioned I will simply say the "manufacturer" puts the lead in for ballance.

I had no idea that walking sticks were so popular for self defense.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Ken

woodsman1st

01-01-2009, 10:53 AM

Just a quick update on my flight to AZ with my White Oak Walking Stick; one end has approximately one pound of lead poured into it.
I ended up having to go through security 3 times on my trip to AZ and back due to a side trip to Las Vegas to visit an old Friend. My walking stick was placed into the Xray on all 3 checkpoints. In AZ. what appeared to be a senior officer, somewhere in his late 50s, approached me with my stick in his hand. I thought "uh ohh" to myself. In a rather stern, but not unfriendly manner, he pointed to the half inch cirlcle of lead where it enters the end of my stick and asked me what it was. I looked him in the eye and told him it was for "ballance". The silence got a tad strained for a moment; so I showed him my CCW permit and told him I really did need the stick to help me walk; and that the
"ballancing" of the stick made me feel a little safer when walking. He smiled and handed me back my leaded walking stick; and said "Thankyou; have a nice flight". He knew damn well what the lead was for. I believe my honesty and CCW permit prevailed.
All the others ignored the lead in my stick.

I picked up 3 fine pieces of Ironwood to make walking sticks from; one was standing and dead ready to work on; the other two are green and I will have to wait until dry. These Ironwood sticks will not need any additional lead for "ballance". They are extremely hard and very very heavy.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL
Ken

Brownie

01-01-2009, 11:12 AM

Sounds like you had several uneventful trips with the cane Ken.

If it can pass the scrutiny of TSA, it should pass anywhere in the country.

Good New Year to you as well.

woodsman1st

01-01-2009, 11:53 AM

I believe you are right Brownie for the average person manning the Xray; and the other average people employed in the security checkpoints.

The officer that questioned me, I feel, was far above average in experience. I got the distinct impression that the gentleman/officer that questioned me was vastly more qualified; perhaps a retired LEO of some sort; but one that held a higher position of responsibility as an LEO. My feeling was that my limp and stiffness meant nothing to him; as that can be easily faked; I feel that he was examining "me" as a person. If I had blinked; or if I had not produced my CCW Permit; or if I had not "fessed up" that I felt safer with that "Ballance" in my walking stick, he would not have allowed me to take it on my flight. When he thanked me prior to wishing me a safe flight; I am certain he was thanking me for being honest, and not taking him for a fool. (Of course after talking to me he may have felt I was just a harmless, doddering old idiot ; but I prefer to think otherwise for some reason.)

Consequently when I make my new Ironwood Walking Sticks, I will be a bit more conservative with the sharks teeth etc. than I had planned on; no sense in waving red warning flags.
Ken

woodsman1st

01-19-2009, 12:07 PM

I have looked at all of the videos that several of you have posted here and I see one thing in common in all of them; there is considerable footwork, and dropping to one knee etc., involved in each of them.
I also have spent considerable amount of time researching this subject on the internet and found the same result.

I think I made this request before in this forum, but I am not sure if I did; does anyone know of the kind of video, or book, I am looking for, directed to those of us with limited mobility? I hate to spend 30 to 50 bucks on something that I will only be able to use about 10% of.

I started to shape the Ironwood sticks I picked up while in AZ; they are coming along nicely. I will post some pics in the near future in order to get your comments and/or advice.
Is anyone familiar on how to prevent, or minimize, the splitting/cracking of the green wood as it dries out? I have never used green wood before.
Take care all
Ken

RAM

01-19-2009, 02:02 PM

Is anyone familiar on how to prevent, or minimize, the splitting/cracking of the green wood as it dries out? I have never used green wood before.
Take care all
Ken

Let it thoroughly dry out before working/shaping it.

Once dried out shaped and sanded, soak it in mineral oil (Submerged overnight is best). Reapply the mineral oil every 3 - 6 months with a rag.

If you want a real smooth finish your final sanding can be done after soaking in min oil with 600 grit (wet or dry) using the same mineral oil keeping the sanding paper wet as you sand.

You can finish the piece with tung oil after the mineral oil has soaked in, this also helps to keep from drying out and cracking with less maintenance. For a really beautiful hand rubbed finish wet sand with 600 and mineral oil between coats of tung oil letting it dry over night, repeating until the desired level of finish is achieved. If you don't want a glossy finish wet sand the final coat with 600 - 1000 grit and min oil.

Several days of this process will make the piece something to brag about!

Edit:

I have not worked with iron wood for a long time but if I recall correctly it is extremely close grain and may not take finishing real well you might try a sample piece with the tung oil first. The last time I worked iron wood I finish sanded out with 1000 grit wet with min oil to a very smooth almost glossy finish without tung oil.

What color is the wood? The color I used was very dark brown almost black and made a real Nice set of grips.

woodsman1st

01-19-2009, 05:36 PM

Hi RAM; thanks for your answer. I will try your method of finishing the wood with mineral oil; I haven't used that before. The wood will, or should be, dark brown and/or black as you said. And it is indeed very close grained and heavy. It should make a very 'usefull' walking stick; I will even be able to use it for walking I think.:D

The problem I am having now, is that the wood is starting to crack while it is drying out; this is what I am trying to prevent. I have made and hand checkered several gun stocks in the past; but the wood was already dried and cured; and of course didnt have any cracks in it.
Ken

Brownie

01-19-2009, 08:34 PM

Good call on the mineral oil RAM. I use mineral oil on a staff/waling stick twice a year out here in the dry desert heat and it's been just fine for 5 years with this schedule.

I also use mineral oil sparingly on my leather holsters, an 8 pound block of mammoth tusk, and some ivory items. When I got the mammoth tusk, I called a museum and they recommended soaking it in mineral oil for 4 days, then letting it ooze/weep out slowly and repeating every year which I've done. Since then, no new cracks from the differences in temps and humidity changes.

RAM

01-19-2009, 11:17 PM

Here is some info from Woodweb.com:

Qualities of Ironwood (Also Called "Hornbeam")
"American Hornbeam" and "Hop Hornbeam" are hard and strong, especially well suited for tool handles and timber-frame pegs. May 14, 2006
Question
There may be several varieties of iron wood. I believe the variety I have here is American hop hornbeam. I have never seen one that is more than 10 inches or so and most are smaller. Bark is very small grained and light grey in the winter. Has anyone ever sawn this and is it worth the effort? What is the quality of the wood? I found two in my woods that look to be extremely old and since a saw blade log is small and only one to a tree, I'd lie to know if it is special before I cut them down. I got a billion of the things that are maybe the diameter of a quarter on field edges, but only these two that look to be old.

Forum Responses
(Sawing and Drying Forum)
From contributor T:
I have never sawed ironwood (hornbeam). I have cut it for firewood. It is very abrasive on a chainsaw, very hard and heavy - it makes excellent firewood. It is also an important food source for partridge, etc. There are small nut type fruits on it in the fall. I am not going to saw any if possible. Try one if you like and see how it turns out.

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From contributor C:
Hop hornbeam makes good tool handles, or implements such as on a farm or factory that require taking great strain, also wear resistant. Not durable to weather, though.

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From contributor B:
Hornbeam makes the strongest pegs for timber framing.

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From contributor G:
In the central states, there are two native hornbeams, both also called ironwood. Hop hornbeam, Ostrya virginiana, has light brown shreddy bark and gets the hop hornbeam name from the cluster of overlapping seed pods which resemble a cone of fruits on a hop vine. American hornbeam, Carpinus caroliniana has smooth grey bark which is often rippled like muscle, causing it to be called muscle-wood in some areas. Sounds like you have the latter. Like the other posters, I've seen it only in specialized uses that take advantage of its strength. Years ago I gave a 5' piece of it to my son for a walking stick and he used to delight in daring other boy scouts to try to break it. To this day, a veteran of much juvenile abuse, it remains unscathed and is probably still getting harder as it stands retired in the corner of his closet.

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The comments below were added after this Forum discussion was archived as a Knowledge Base article (add your comment).
Comment from contributor R:
Hornbeam, of both kinds, is incredibly strong if it doesn't get wet. A 1" trunk, braced across a 2' gap will hold a grown man. In Minnesota, both hornbeams rarely grow beyond a 4" diameter, and that tree will be over 50 years old. I've only seen one over 6" in 55 years - and that was a wooded area that became a lawn. They normally grow as an under-story tree; they are very leafy, to gather light under taller trees and the area under a grove of hornbeams will be rather open. These groves are a great place to look for ruffed grouse. When hornbeam dries, it checks terribly. This does not seem to weaken it, but I can't imagine how one could get lumber out of it.

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The comments below were added after this Forum discussion was archived as a Knowledge Base article (add your comment).
Comment from contributor J:
I took down an ironwood (about 8" diameter) while clearing a piece of land, and let it lay about 6 months to spalt. I then cut some sections and dried them, and they split terribly. Then I chose areas that had not split, and sawed them up for knife scales (3/8" x 1 1/2" x 5" each side of knife handle). Epoxy has held well for several years, and a linseed oil finish has stabilized and provides great water resistance. In short, let it split, then use what you can.

woodsman1st

01-20-2009, 06:45 AM

RAM; that was exceptionally nice of you to go to all that trouble looking this up and posting it for me. Great information and I will go to that site today.
I can't believe that I didn't think of looking up Ironwood on the internet; what a dunce I can be sometimes.:o SCHEESH!
Hopefully I can meet you and Brownie and the others that have been so helpful to me in this forum one day, and buy you all a round of beer or at least get to shake your hands.

Great bunch of guys!

My thanks to you and everyone else.
Ken

RAM

01-20-2009, 09:55 AM

Hey, it's a chance for me to learn too. I am by no means a wood expert, the iron wood I worked with in the past was old, dry and no splits. It was one small piece big enough to get a set of grips out of. Hard to work... that is why they call it iron wood! I didn't know that if you cut it down that it really tends to split like that as it dries out. Like one guy suggested let it dry out and split and use what you can once it stabilized.

I wonder if trying to feed it mineral oil as it dries would help reduce your splitting?

JMusic

07-12-2009, 04:42 PM

Since I hurt my leg I've been using and studing mine. I believe it is the easiest to learn and most potent weapon made. I was in a bar in Philly the other night and some ******* scoped up my quarters. He said I was crazy and before he got yp mouthy I hooked him in the shoulder and sttretched him out on the table and pushed down on both sides of his neck, quarters came from every where. This is not just a club. I taught PR24 a while back and there is no conparision. I'm working on a clip right now that frees me fom holding the cane.
but attaches to my belt. These are one of the finest non firarm weapon I have ever seen. ha and a flashight I feel as safe as with a firearm and I would use it with less hesitation.

Jim

Michael

07-21-2009, 06:36 AM

Jim,

I've had low back problems off and on for about 10 years now (disc), and bought a Canemasters cane a few years ago. I use it a lot when I'm having problems like I've had the last couple of weeks. They are stout and very well-made, and I have taken mine on planes and cruises. The one I have is hickory, and it has the sharp point on the crook. However, I am not a fan of the crook. I know many are, but I favor the two-handed strikes of the F/A/S methods of WWII. I am probably going to cut off part of the crook, leaving enough that I can still lean on it and where it forms more of an "L", which will still make it wicked when swinging the other end and striking with the "L", while also allowing me to use it for support and helping it to fly under the radar going through security.

JMusic

07-21-2009, 12:44 PM

Are you guys putting a hook on one end. If not all you have is a two handed stick or something to poke or thrust with or a club. The swans head INPO is the best weapon of a cane especially when you form a Crane Head.

I wasn't sure if you were soaking and bending a hook. Its the best weapon of a cane. I bet I can jerk "well, have before" someone right over the hood of a car with the crane head. Believe me it don't take much effort they do there best to get there too. Then take them to the ground.

Jim

matt154

08-05-2009, 10:00 PM

Welcome MR.Weinstein Check out CaneMasters.com. They make canes that Brownie and I both carry, even on planes. They have a full course deal with purchase of a cane. Check out the Black Belt cane. Its a sweetheart. Joe you have to be offensive. Even if initially defensive you would deflect the attack and immediatly go offensive. The subject should not be standing when you are finished and it should not take many blows.

Brownie

08-05-2009, 10:12 PM

Welcome to the forum matt154 :cool:

JMusic

09-01-2009, 11:20 AM

I've described using the blackbelt as using a rifle bayonete and stock or using a hacksaw. Here's another look at the black belt.

Jim

Michael

09-01-2009, 07:37 PM

Jim,

Mine is like that with the sharp point on the crook, but it doesn't have but one set of cuts into the cane body for gripping.

JMusic

09-02-2009, 06:45 AM

On the the bottom in the inside there's about 10 " of a trianguler cut simular to a saw. Not sure if I have a clear pic but on this thread at the beginning 6 pics were printed one is a shot of that. I can tell you from experience it takes less that 1.5 seconds to have the guy in a position on the ground to where you could seperate the spine. Nasty. That includes picking them out of the group and maybe over a car, pool table, etc. The grips Michial are special weapons also.

Jim

Michael

09-02-2009, 06:54 AM

I like mine a lot. They are really well made and heavy.

Brownie

09-02-2009, 07:11 AM

Michael,,

The "set of cuts into the cane body for gripping" are called sharks teeth [ but they are softer than the ones further down the cane on mine ].

My Canemasters Instructors cane is Hickory Heart, with one set of sharks teeth running down the inside of the cane shaft. The shaft is triangular in shape about 40% of it's length from the tip toward the crook and that's where the sharks teeth are placed. Being triangular, the "cuts" are a little more pointed.

The birds beak crook will dig a kidney out of someone's back in short order if applied with enough force. Mine has the softer cut outs for the grip starting where the birds beak height is on the shaft for additional gripping power like yours and Jim's.

Those sharks teeth on the triangular shaft will rip flesh from bony surfaces like the forehard, temple, wrists, and lower forearms when applied correctly. Mine has flown with me on several occasions when off training.

Only once has the cane been questioned by TSA agents, right here in Phoenix going out. He made some off the wall comment about the sharks teeth being notches for people I've killed [ like the notches on a gun in the old west ] and I told him I was too old for that sort of stuff, they were just decorative. :rolleyes:

I have a walnut Canemasters cane as my practice cane and it's very light compared to the hickory heart SD cane.

Brownie